Heineken Cup split a trump card for South Africa's Super Rugby hopes

If SA enter the new european rugby championship and "increase" the numbers, all they have to do is make it like the UEFA champions league with 32 teams in the competition which means 4 teams per group instead of 6, with the old format each team played a total of 18(not sure about that) if you get to the final but if it's 4 per group you get to play 14 matches much less than the old format, and with the similiar time zones SA teams can play Currie Cup rugby during the season and the The Rugby Championship, so we eat our cake with the cream on too.... VIVA BOKKE VIVA(I'm black by the way)

If SA enter the new european rugby championship and "increase" the numbers, all they have to do is make it like the UEFA champions league with 32 teams in the competition which means 4 teams per group instead of 6, with the old format each team played a total of 16(not sure about that) if you get to the final but if it's 4 per group you get to play 14 matches much less than the old format, and with the similiar time zones SA teams can play Currie Cup rugby during the season and the The Rugby Championship, so we eat our cake with the cream on too.... VIVA BOKKE VIVA(I'm black by the way)

I agree with JB in terms of the English and French being reluctant as the whole point of the breakaway is that they get more qualification places and top Irish and Welsh teams can't field weakened teams in the Pro12 to save for Heineken Cup matches as they risk not qualifying for the next tournament. However as has been stated there is a potential viewing market in South Africa of 50 million on a similar time zone to Europe. One would think that the tv deal that could be attracted with SA teams in would provide a massive boost to English and French teams in the competition. So it may be a case of extra competition spots vs extra money for the Anglo-French teams. As for Super Rugby. The mess of expansion makes it difficult to resolve. I don't think Argentina, Pacific or Japanese are good enough for the competition and it should be Super 16 only playing each team once.

The last time there was talk of a split in Super Rugby & the SA teams pulling out, i'm pretty sure the 3 countries had agreed that regardless of the outcome it would not affect the Tr-Nations (at the time) & i suspect this would be the case now as well with the way the international windows work

"we are kak (ask a saffer to translate)" Just to clarify, I understand a lot more Afrikaans than that. Many many years ago I went out with a mooi afrikaanse meisie. From Durban but one generation off the veldt. "With respect, the workings of the Aus TV is not relevant." Yes it is. "Samual" (to whom I replied) was talking about the effect in Australia of a hypothetical failure of Super rugby, not its effect in South Africa. "Those increased revenues are not kept by SA, but are distributed across SANZAR. …" Yes but that creates tensions of the sort we are seeing here. I appreciate that revenues in super rugby are pooled, but that only works so long as the contributions from each participating nation are reasonably on par. A bit of skewing is workable since NZ and Aus bring interest to the comp in terms of foreign provincial teams that otherwise Saffa fans wouldn't see, and that translates to extra ticket sales and viewings in SA. But in the end, Australia's take from super rugby depends on what Australia itself brings to the table, and when we are tied to a medium that over 70% of Australian households never see, it just doesn't work. "So saying “off you go, we don’t care” is just foolish and self-defeating." Its not that we don't care, its just that there are bigger issues at stake. My belief, as I have outlined and its shared by others, is that Australian rugby is dropping behind the other top nations because of a lack of a national domestic competition, and that super rugby is getting in the way of establishing such a comp, in part because of the way it ties us to Pay TV which in Australia is a minority medium. "Bear in mind if Super Rugby folds, SANZAR would probably as well, and the Championship also." Why would the championship fold just because super rugby does? I am not too worried if it does, because I have no doubt it would be immediately replaced with old-style tours, but I don't see that sort of a connection between SR and RC. "So just the Bledisloe then." My God, you really do have a low opinion of Wallabies marketability, don't you? I know we haven't been doing well lately, but sheesh… :) Seriously, if the RC disappeared, I don't think any of the participating nations would have the slightest trouble filling their calendar with tours to and from other nations.

Precisely. That doesn't mean actually making the switch is easy. But the strategic imperative is undeniable.

??? Because you have to have a product before you can deal, obviously.

BB, I don't think you read the last sentence in my post. Reliance on foreign players is a temporary expedient.

As i posted below & elsewhere on this thread, the discussion over moving from 4-6 teams in the finals started around 2006/07 with NZ & OZ in agreement & the stumbling block was SA who wanted a guaranteed home final as part of it. They couldn't agree & it was shelved. Have a look at the home finals for the years leading up to 2007 & you will see why they wanted it. Home finals for SA 2007 – Sharks 2006 – None 2005 – None 2004 – None 2003 – None 2002 – None 2001 – Sharks 2000 – None 1999 – Stormers 1998 – None Given SA were contributing the majority of the revenue, it's understandable why they wanted a cut of the finals pie & they wanted that guaranteed because at that time they had not had one for some time.

Hi mike, sorry for responding so late. I don't have a problem that they look like foreign legions. You should have a problem wirh it. If you only have 5 professional rugby teams it is to your detriment not to use them to expose your own talent to super rugby.

Mike, as I said above, if the ARU can sign better deals outside of Super Rugby then why not just do it?

But in that case you don't need Super Rugby, do you? If you can make more money from free tv why stick around in Super Rugby?

Dallym, you must have missed the 2007 final

Thank God for that JimmyB :)

Bayxxx: "This is why no French side has won it in an eternity." You mean since the 2012 final between Biarritz and Toulon - that kind of eternity? It's equally true that the top teams in the Pro12 can rotate because they have the squads to do so. the less affluent teams don't have the resources or depth of talent to do so. Granted a couple of seasons ago, teams such as Edinburgh quite cynically focussed on the H Cup in comparison to their league position - and I don't agree with that. But I wouldn't tar all Pro12 teams with the same brush. And the point being made is that Irish teams in particular are winning the H Cup or making the playoffs because they're resting their players. They are three of the top teams in the Pro12, same as the top teams in the T14 - when playing in the premier competition - the Heineken. That's the comparison I'm making and the one that PRL focus on. And I'm sure that if I was to look at the make-up of some of the Premiership teams during the AP season, I'd find some squad rotation going on as well. But it's too tedious. Squad rotation is here to stay and bleating about it, ain't going to make it go away. I think a more worrying issue is the number of foreign players being used by teams to play in the H Cup. Stricter quotas should be imposed in my view with greater emphasis on use and development of local talent since the H Cup provides the next step up to test rugby.

"PH if you’re happy with the Rabo, then good on you mate, no doubt being a Leinster man, you have bigger fish to fry. However you can’t expect anyone other than the participating nations to have any interest in it, because it just isn’t interesting." JimmyB - You could equally say the same about any of the other leagues - the AP has lots of drivel games and the occasional sparkler which I watch. The same goes for S15, T14 and Pro12. You may think the Pro12 is uninteresting, but there are English fans who watch Pro 12 games. How much further afield than that - I don't know. The reality is that only some of the teams in the Pro12 rest some of their best players - they have big enough squads to do so - other teams don't. I'd also wager that when or if some of the bigger Premiership clubs get a chance to expand their squads, they'll do the exact same thing. Because the French are already doing it - and oddly the English don't take them to task over that. Yet if the Irish provinces do it (and let's face it, that's who they're talking about on this specific issue because of 5 Irish Heineken wins in the last 7 years), somehow that's wrong and unfair because they manage their players better. You mention Leinster. They are accused of resting players for the H Cup. Yet they still fight in the league as well - they did the double last year. They have been consistently in the top four since 2004 and always in the playoff finals of the Pro12. To be honest, I think the English clubs are making a pact with the devil in aligning themselves with France to grow their game. I was listening to one of the French coaches today, and he said that the TV rights to the Top 14 are due up for renewal in about 18 months time. They have interest from a raft of TV stations to take their product and it's expected that they will triple their existing revenue with the next deal. That is serious money - and the H Cup or whatever variant is only going to be small beer in comparison. French buying power will continue to cause a player drain from other countries and eventually undermine test competitions. English clubs may believe they can withstand that with their much bigger player pool, but what's the point in having a 6 Nations where four of the sides are completely impoverished and denuded of talent. It's not in their long-term interests. In the end, it's all about money really and control and power. That's what the PRL and LNR want to get their hands on. One-eyed commentary about having greater meritocracy and more competition is all about undermining the Pro12 teams and advancing the fortunes of the French and English clubs. I've no doubt that there should be, and will be, changes to the structure of the competition. If it's done at the expense of the survival of the game in some unions, then it will be a hollow victory.

Mike, With respect, the workings of the Aus TV is not relevant. What is relevant is that SA is a country that is enjoying massive growth in this sport. It's easy to understand why if you look at our social and economic context. The social context is that we have a potential rugby-watching population of more than 50 million people. That went from 4 million (white saffers) to 50 million post 1994. People can argue about political pressure being bad for the game, but let me tell you the younger black guys who work with me watch rugby and go to games whenever offered the opportunity to do so. Soccer is the most watched sport but we are kak (ask a saffer to translate), and there is nothing more appealing than watching a national team that can win the world cup (and has twice notwithstanding only having been allowed to compete since 1995). Getting the sixth team is good for all three SANZAR nations and here's why. The Kings, despised as they were even back home before the start of this year's Super Rugby, attracted big crowds of passionate supporters in a region that is routinely stripped of its best players. And the eastern cape is the historic home of black rugby in SA. Now, you might say, the Kings were not demographically representative, and you're right. But the fact is SANZAR made more money off ticket sales from Kings home games than they did any year in in the last decade Joburg (and I live in Joburg but hail from Durban so support the Sharks and go to Ellis Park when it's worth it). Those increased revenues are not kept by SA, but are distributed across SANZAR. SA already generates disproportionately more rugby union revenues for SANZAR than the other two and therefore subsidises the others. But that's worth it, because of the benefits of playing against the other two - it can't be a coincidence that we are the top 3 at any point in time (I have no doubt the wallabies will be back with a vengeance and rclaim their spot - recall in 2010 Kurtley Beale's kick to win on the highveld for the first time in decades? The players are there, they just need to be led. And maybe fix the scrum!) and I agree that we risk slipping a little - not a lot - by not regularly facing the Southern Hemisphere teams. But the point is we do generate the biggest union revenues in the world, and we are growing the game. As support for the game grows across demographics (which is sparked by the presence of players like Siya Kolisi who was a development player and therefore beneiftted from the much-maligned social imperatives in our sport - development rugby would not exist without it), we penetrate that 53 million potential supporters, the game will continue to grow. Bear in mind also that when rugby was just a "white sport", the player pool was limited to 4m x 50% = 2m people. New Zealand currently has a population of 4,4m and Aus a total population of 23m or so. Apply some assumptions around how many of those actually play and watch union and I would be surprised if you had a potential player pool of anywhere close to the 2m NZ has. I'm sure the stats are available but my aussie mates tell me with grave concern that the trend is not going in the right direction. In SA we have: Super Rugby, the Championship, Currie Cup, Currie Cup First Division, and then we have the Varisty Cup - newly launched and enjoying massive support both on campuses and off, and televised - and a recently launched Cell C Community Cup, to meet the demands of the >900 rugby clubs in SA. This is why we bleed players like Bakkies and Victor to Europe and manage to keep our lineouts sorted. If those two hadn't retired we would never have seen Etzebeth. (In fact we have ourselves to blame for not bringing our new talent into the fold sooner under our last coach and hanging onto a couple of veterans for a bit too long - we clearly have loads of talent waiting in the wings...) So in summary - already contributing substantial revenues to SANZAR and growing number of players, clubs and teams, and supporters, all mean bigger revenues to be redistributed across SANZAR and yes, to underpin Australian rugby because we cannot envisage a world without the wallabies who can snatch a victory from anywhere (like Larkham did to us in 1999). So saying "off you go, we don't care" is just foolish and self-defeating. NZ rugby can survive, but can Aussie rugby? Not as confident. It is a mutually beneficial arrangement and one we should try preserve, but if we have the numbers it is to SANZAR's benefit to allow more teams. Bear in mind if Super Rugby folds, SANZAR would probably as well, and the Championship also. So just the Bledisloe then. Enjoy. JB - your comment re if we want 6 teams we are hankering after the dark days of apartheid? Get knotted. How is that statement even remotely logical? That's just an unintelligent insult and I'd say a lot more but this is actually not a bad forum and don't want the debate to degenerate. Don't resort to insulting and inflammatory innuendo mate. It's not cool. We have moved on. Maybe you should too.

Well that is how SA got treated in the previous round. However I dont agree with that sort of attitude whether on the dishing out or receiving end

Samuel, you don't have a clue. The very fact that you ask what Fox Sports would pay shows that you don't know how the TV market in Australia works. If you want to pull out, go ahead.

Super rugby would go down the drain if RSA left. NZ, economy the size of a small pie shop in Melbourne and rugby is very much the 4th ranked footballing game for interest and participation in Australia. Maybe the player's would like to go back to amateurism or semi professional if the South Africans went to Europe. If you think about it, the Saffers could get rid of Super rugby and then pick off the best talent to play in it's sides over in Europe. A clever plan.