Heineken Cup impasse: make or break for Pro12 clubs

I still don't follow. There's a big emphasis in England ATM on academy products and English players from the lower leagues. Saracens too.

See Johnnyb's post above

I don't get your point about Arsenal and Harlequins, Dave?

JimmyB I'm not saying it's "Just" smoke and mirrors, but nor do I think that the Welsh regional sides would be so Quixotic as to offer support for a tournament about which little certain is known and which is likely to have knock on effects about which even less is certain, unless they were given some guarantees. And these guarantees could well involve arrangements outside the new proposed European Championship. As for Harlequins being as "English" as ever. Well, that may be so. But if you know your soccer history, you will know that Arsenal holds the record for the greatest single contribution ever to an English national side when on one occasion seven out of eleven of the England players on show came from Arsenal. Would that happen now? Couldn't. They've only two or three English players now. Times change, is all I'm saying. Nigel Wray of Saracens has often said that he wants his club to be "The Manchester United of Rugby" So he wants players from around the world playing for a world wide TV audience. Is that what Rugby is about? It's always been a global game, not a globalised one. There's a difference.

DD, are you suggesting that it's all just smoke and mirrors then? Btw, not sure that Quins is a great example of an "international team" seeing as they are predominately an English team, with an exceptional academy bringing through English players. I believe their last match in the HC featured 13 Englishmen and 2 NZers in the starting XV.

And the Welsh regions have decided to sell out. As Johnno indicated they would in the first reply above. Regional Rugby Wales (RRW) , the body representing the four Welsh regional teams (Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys, Dragons) issued a statement last night saying that it: “confirms its full support for the proposed new Rugby Champions Cup competitions" It continued: “Whilst there remain elements of detail to be confirmed, it is now clear that there are a number of significant advantages to the new competitions in equality of governance, format, qualification and distribution across the individual participating clubs. Consequently, RRW looks forward to working with the WRU to support their efforts and positive engagement in striving to ensure our teams are involved in strong, valuable European clubs competitions in time for next season.” Doesn't surprise anyone. What needs to be revealed is just what goodies have been promised to the Welsh regions to encourage them to stand up to their Union. With a smaller European Cup next year, what will they do for the rest of the season? Do they intend to continue in the Rabo Pro 12 (which will need a new sponsor next year) or have they been offered some new structures allied to the English Premiership? This is not such a conspiracy theory as it may sound. The Welsh, by which I mean Welsh rugby in general, have never warned to the Celtic League/Pro 12, considering it largely beneath a country with such a proud rugby history as Wales. Their home matches are played before sparse crowds, despite the spanking new stadia like Parc y Scarlets in Llanelli and Liberty Stadium in Swansea. Many of their best players play outside the country and they have never punched their weight at European level. No Heineken Cup victories and a solitary appearance by Cardiff in the final of the first ever competition, from which English and Scottish sides were missing, is the best they can manage. Let's say they haven't been offered entry into the English Premiership. Would they be able to continue playing in the Pro 12 if the Irish and Scottish held out against the new competition? Unlikely. The sadness about all this is that it might not result simply in a slight reorganisation of European rugby competitions, to which few people in reality have any major objection. The potential to accept a renegotiation of how the revenue and qualifications work out is there and always has been. But the long term aims of the big clubs in France and England have nothing to do with the way rugby is currently structured and everything to do with a vision of a brave new globalised world in which TV audiences around the world will pay to watch players from around the world play in brand-supported club sides in big European cities. Like happens in soccer. Why would you want to support Leinster when you could just as easily support multinational Harlequins? After all, how many Irish soccer fans support Shamrock Rovers compared to the numbers that support Manchester United? If you look at the share out of revenues from the current Heineken Cup in terms of the three professional leagues, it looks as if it is ufairly skewed towards the Pro 12. But if you look at it in terms of the share for individual country's teams it looks a lot more equitable with England and France getting more than anybody else. That's the way rugby looked on things at the start of the pro era and it is a perfectly valid way to proceed. Of course it needs to change, and it will. The question is how. Similarly for qualification. It looks as if Pro 12 gets a better deal than the other leagues but again, it represents four countries. The thing that really smells about this Welsh announcement is that they support the idea of only six teams qualifiying from the Pro 12. Look at the tables: it is very likely, if they were serious that Welsh team's participation in a European competition would drop from three to two or even, conceivably, one. And they favour this why? That;s the biggest single indicator that the Welsh have done a deal, or are acting under a promise, that has got nothing to do with a European Competition and everything to do with a rearrangement of domestic leagues. It's a tough old world and we have to do what suits us all best individually, but the uncertainty about the future of a competition that has served rugby and its public well, produced some great games and memories saddens me. And the likely denuding of the Irish teams, which have performed well in the professional era, and the Scottish, which have performed less so is not good for anyone. Except the French and English club owners. Mind you, the English and French do not speak with one voice, have subtly different agendas and cordially hate each others guts. Consequently, when they get together to reshape the world in their interests they tend to make a God awful mess. Just look at the Middle East today and then Google Skyes-Picot. So maybe it will all muddle out for the best in the end. But I'm not optimistic

Finances does matter more now as UEFA are trying to bring in financial fair play which is similar to what LNR clubs in France have to comply by (obviously on a much bigger scale). This means clubs like City have to remain profitable to spend rather then rely on sugar daddies. Man United have racked up significant debts under the Glazers and their ambition on the transfer market are drying up. On the other Arsenal have sacrificed buying trophies to compete with City, United and Chelsea to work on their stadium and remain financially stable. England's problem is junior development. They play on bigger pitches from a younger age rather then breaking it down to encourage kids to work on their passing and skills. Quiet often English players lose the ball easily, struggle on their wrong foot, mental aspects (look how many times they have lost in a shootout) and the national team play in a formation different to clubs. Another thing is balance they pick players out of position and struggle to fit Lampard and Gerrard in to the starting side. Another thing is that the top clubs are filling their manager jobs with foreigners, scots and irishmen who obviously aren't going for the poisoined chalice.

B Money to spend or insane debt - it doesn't matter does it?? The English international team is the side that is IMO, under pressure...the question is "WHY??" 50+ years is a helluva long time between drinks especially when the FA league is regarded as one of, if not the best league, on the global football stage. IMHO, the IRB plus the global rugby fraternity should make every endeavour to ensure this does not happen to its international test arena.

Monopoly? This is a battle for control and power by clubs over unions - money and qualification are just smokescreen. The ERC is held by 6 shareholders of the Six Nations 16.69% each. England and France split theirs 50/50 with their club representative organisations - PRL and LNR. Voting rights are instructive and not well known. Contrary to media publicity and PRL spin, IRFU, WRU, SRU and FIR have 2 votes each. England and France have 5 votes each, with the unions lending or giving their votes to PRL/LNR as and when required. PRL and LNR have failed to convince their own unions of their case, but if they were aligned, they would have a 10-8 majority on all voting against the minority Celt and Italians. Interestingly, Toulon owner, Boudjellal, broke ranks yesterday protesting at foreign player limits being introduced into Top 14, and threatened to play in H Cup next season, rather than the supposed Champions Cup.

The English soccer clubs have money to spend but have insane debts. English players are overvalued look at the money Liverpool wasted on poor English players. England with their reliance on 4-4-2 is a bit like Tennis Australia (who believe that tennis should be played on grass contrary to the tour schedule), stuck in the past.

I don't Wales will only play in a IRB endorsed competition. RRW can't go anywhere without WRU approval. The WRU insures the players, accredites the coaches and refs.

What's that saying about "The tail wagging the dog" or something like that?? Unfortunately, I think this is what is happening in NH and there will be no good result in the end for European rugger overall. IMO, professional rugby in the NH will only be a success for the fat-cats who are fronting up the dollars at the expense of NH rugby overall. Just look at the FA league scene in England. The big wealthy clubs have so much money that they're spending it on overseas players - heck, there must be so many of these players in the FA league, that you have to ask where's the home-grown kids - yeah, I know, some clubs have home-grown players. Problem I see is that England has not won the FWC since 1966 and unless something happens next year, will easily surpass 50+ years before they get a chance to drink the next win. It doesn't seem feasible that folk cannot meet around the table and sort this matter out - someone or some corporate connection is the puppeteer and the English/French clubs are the puppets. Sooner or later, we will see the same factions have a go at the IRB to dominate global rugby...and that's not something all the national unions will want to face. International test rugby, which I think is the major drawcard leading into every RWC, will become a series of friendly matches between sides similar to what we're witnessing in the international football arena, if this matter is not treated properly. I hope the IRB and all global national unions get their collective heads together and make sure this tail has no chance whatsoever, of wagging the IRB, otherwise you can virtually say goodbye to all international rugby we are watching at present. They resisted before when professionalism was first mooted back in '95 and got together to form SANZAR. Now they need to do the same except this time, do it on the global stage, if all unions want to protect the international arena and of course, their respective domestic arenas. Righto, that's my rant for the day. It's time now to crack a stubby, put on me AB jersey, fire up the barbie, have a feed then settle back for the AB v WB test match in Dunedin. "The boyz are black in town."

Wales I think will come on board. And the negotiations have now moved beyond, the England/French clubs being branded as greedy or rebels, to now what is the best deal. Welsh have most to gain, it's the Irish/Scotish who are now most concerned about there monopoly being broken. Italy will do whatever, it has the economy and market to be sustainable in a big Europe comp.