Club versus country – which is the priority?

Steven - You are spot on with your view. Last season we had 1.666,000 people watching 132 HAL games,That's an average of 12,600 per game so it could be said there are 63,000 fans watching football every week under 5 different banners(each home team). Now add to that the countless thousands who play,or watch every week in winter and again add juniors and a percentage of parents and that is the potential interest that could be generated if we had ,not a world beating Socceroo team, but one that had the potential to rightfully be in the top 16 teams in the world. It is a marketers dream. jb

Mike -.A league growth was not called a myth,the FFA's claim that growth over the last 2 years was 40% is a myth & I'll prove it for you The total number of attendees at HAL weekly fixtures in season 2010/11 was 1.380,474 The total number of attendees at HAL weekly fixtures in season 2011/12 was 1,414,180 - an increase of 2.5% The total number of attendees at HAL weekly fixtures in season 2012/13 was 1,666,315 - an increase of 17.7% As you can see the 2 season growth in attendess actually amounts to 20% which is still a great amount of growth. However the differential between 11/12 &12/13 is much larger than the previous year & this can be explained by the huge contribution made to the figures by the success of WSW crowds when compared with the crowds of the club they replaced GCU.Also the ADP effect on attendances all around the country has to be considered. You see, statistically this year's growth figure will be calculated against those figures generated last year & if one takes the crowds attracted to the first 10 games this season 176,754 & compare it with the 10 opening games last year 175 332 it will be noted the growth so far is minimal, actually less than 1%. Hope this is of interest. We all hope for continued growth but we can do without false claims.Cheers jb

It's not irrational, just as the FFA moves to prop up clubs, it is also moving at times to interfere A good example is everyone goes on about MVFC poaching Ange from Roar, when in reality the FFA interfered to keep Ange there for an extra year it turned out to increase the sale value of the Roar franchise, how is MVFC expected to be able to outbid the FFA in terms of coaches salary in this instance? I think Jesse Fink wrote an article about this if I remember right]] Then there is the sponsorship structure, the FFA gets its own sponsors for the league, club can't get sponsors that clash with these sponsors and from the same industry, that is direct competition but it is also problematic for club owners because they are expected to someohow make their "franchises" profitable with significant restrictions while they are expected to quietly bear all the losses incurred and keep quiet about wanting more power? That is half the reason why the FFA are having to prop up clubs in the first place, people keep wanting to hand their "licenses" back and that is half the reason why there are problems getting investors, WS was a great example, area was brimming with potential yet they had to set it up themselves Then again I'm just being irrational now aren't I

Which kind of does raise the question as to why the FA buckled, but regardless the point will remain that the health of the game and the ability to make it or break it will lie increasingly with the league and not the FFA, not quite in the same way as the old NSL, but there will be an increasing need and pressure for the FFA to release their grip Fwiw I support a high level of autonomy for the league, absolute independence as people speak of won't be good, especially if the clubs are owned by people who don't have the overall interests of the fraternity at heart. Interestingly the talk in England is slowly moving toward combining the three disparate football bodies (FA, EPL and Football League [Championships to League 2]) toward a unified body once again, though this will mean overcoming the significant financial interests tied up in the EPL which will be a very difficult task and not one achievable anytime soon

It's a very interesting debate and many countries see the whole thing very differently. The English clubs have an understanding that they won't stand in the way if the FA wants their manager for the England job. Compensation will be agreed and that's the end of the matter. What's harder is finding a manager that actually wants the job! At the same time however the clubs appear to do everything possible to undermine the England team by pulling players out regularly from squads only for them to reappear on the pitch the following weekend. The clubs also accuse England of playing players (Wenger has been furious about Jack Wilshire as an example) when they're not fit, blah blah. Scotland it's very similar. I understand in Germany there's far more unity and everyone tends to get behind the national side although I'd defer to someone who knows better than me. I think in an ideal world you obviously want both and I think the argument can be skewed by the relative strength of the national team versus the league. In the current cycle, the A League is obviously booming and the national team is going through a tough time. How the fans feel about their club versus their country will also change as the league develops and standards improve. For instance, in Scotland I would wager the vast majority of Rangers and Celtic fans care far more about their club than they do their country's prospects. I would also guess that for ManU, Arsenal fans etc in England it is a similar thing. The bigger and more successful your club becomes the more fans will attach more importance to that. Few in cricket for instance would ever put their club or states' interest above their countrys' I would guess.......

"The top English clubs pushing against the English FA for formation of the EPL a a good example, the EPL is more powerful than the English FA to the detriment of English football more broadly" It took over 100 years for the "top English clubs" to create an autonomous entity, separated from the control of the English FA. The HAL has been operating for just over 8 years. Big revenue clubs may think they have the power, but the ultimate power rests with FIFA, individual Confederations & member federations. Without Fifa endorsement, clubs will only be able to compete against other clubs (players) who also choose to remain outside the FIFA umbrella.

"and then there is the FFA which is a rival organisation to the clubs in many respects" Come on, mate.. surely, even you don't believe what you've written? Apart from MelbHeart, the FFA has propped up every Australian A-League club financially. Even MVFC would not have existed if the FFA didn't inject funds, when no one wanted to invest money in the club. Let's not be irrational about our criticism of the FFA.

Yes but even for WS fans that gratitude wears off over time as the FFA keep unduly interfering, what sets WS apart is that the FFA did the opposite to what they have been doing before which is exactly the reason no one wanted a license for the area despite it brimming with so much potential Look at the history of the HAL, it is a story of club owners frustration with FFA restrictions on sponsorship and so many other issues which is why Constantine, Palmer and Tinkler have blown up at them, over time , as fans become enamoured with their clubs more than he FFA run Socceroos, they will identify with their clubs frustrations People in the west of Sydney will love wsw more (much more) than the Socceroos And the FFA started the comp, but it was club administrators like Geoff Lord and co who made it work down here make no mistake, we have persevered despite the FFA, not because of it As for the 8 or 9 clubs part, generally the smaller clubs go in line with the national associations but the bigger ones are a bit more challenging, eg Man Utd or Arsenal or even Chelsea now effectively have as much power as the English FA as a rival organisation, can you see Ferguson, Wenger or Mourinho getting poached for a NT role not only by England, but other top NT's like Italy or Spain or France.

"It is inevitable that the HAL clubs and perhaps event he elite ones like WSW and MVFC will be more powerful than the FFA, thing is, a mature football nation has fans that prioritise club > country! most HAL fans will side with their clubs, as I have sided with MVFC over the FFA regarding Ange for example and also why NUFC > England NT as well." How about the other 8 (or 9) clubs which will probably tell Victory fans like yourself to pull your heads in? I think you'll find as much as Wanderer's love their team immensely, their birth of as club was very much a FFA conception ... they'll always remember what their Mummy and Daddy did for them and will love the Roo's equally as their Red and Black. Something some of you Victory fans could do well remembering. FFA started the HAL. Victory would not exist without it...show some gratitude!

They are bundled together but won't always be It is often the case that he very top echelons of club football will combine to challenge and be evens stronger than the national or inter-continental associations The top English clubs pushing against the English FA for formation of the EPL a a good example, the EPL is more powerful than the English FA to the detriment of English football more broadly Similarly, we can see a similar thing with the so-called G14 (which is now a g20 I think?) group of elite euro clubs which is able to compete and substantially pressure UEFA It is inevitable that the HAL clubs and perhaps event he elite ones like WSW and MVFC will be more powerful than the FFA, thing is, a mature football nation has fans that prioritise club > country! most HAL fans will side with their clubs, as I have sided with MVFC over the FFA regarding Ange for example and also why NUFC > England NT as well. Like iv'e been trying to point out, the early signs are there of an inexorable power shift Only have to look at differences in active support between clubs and NT to see the early signs of this phenomenon. That is what will set it apart from NSL era, the fans will be on the clubs side, and the FFA's culture of disrespectful treatment of the clubs over the years will come home to roost

This whole "nation's interest" argument is rubbish, there is the nation, and then there is the FFA which is a rival organisation to the clubs in many respects and the MVFC board were rather naive or even foolish in allowing themselves to be influenced by such a notion As for the best interests of the football fraternity, the impetus lies with with the domestic league and it's week to week contact now, not the Socceroos who are only occasionally in the spotlight That is why I argue the exact opposite, n the "nation's interest" don't fundamentally undermine the HAL in order to only marginally improve the end result of the Socceroos at best (round of 16 versus group stage exit)

I wouldn't call the A-League's growth a 'myth'. That would suggest that there is no growth, and that the stats were simply incorrect. Growth is growth, regardless of whether it's from a new team or a new marquee signing, or a new TV deal. And TV ratings are importants. While I agree that sell-out stadia are crucial, fans watching the game at home are still fans nontheless, and this will become the major selling factor when it comes to the next TV deal. In fact, if the growth continues at this rate, the next TV deal could be worth vastly more than the first two. It is early days, but I'm more than confident that the game will grow. The A-League has infiltrated the media, so there's no turning back now.

It's a tough topic, and a lot of people have different views on the matter. I agree that Ange leaving won't damage the competition. Getting the call up to be the coach of the national team is a big honour for him. In terms of the Socceroos, the team was obviously at a low point recently, which is why someone like Ange was needed, and most people have given him the thumbs up. Ten years back, football in Australia was heavily reliant on the national team qualifying for the WC. When that happened in '05, it did wonders for this country. But then we made it to the Round of 16, leaving people (including my younger self) to believe that we were immortal. This means that when we have severe losses like the ones of recent, it puts doubts in the public's mind (mostly non-football fans. I think football fans just feel annoyed). However, the A-League is going strong, and I believe it has finally come to the point when it has surpassed the national team. It has a lot of stability and talen behind it, and a strong A-League can lead to future strong Socceroos, especially with the NYL and NPL, and future FFA Cup. Plus, as you say, there are countless A-League matches every year. And for a hardcore fan like me, and although I love Melbourne Victory, I support all of the teams because it is my own national league. Friday Night Football on SBS is my new ritual, regardless of who plays. So, back to your original question, some will prioritise the Socceroos, whereas others will prioritse the A-League. But hey, either way they're promoting football in Australia, so it's fine by me!

Jesse. I think the Socceroos & the HAL are inexorably tied together, one being at the top of our football "pyramid" the other at the next level down. Now in a perfect situation the second level should support the top level but due to the fact that most of our perceived "better" players don't play in the HAL this can prove to be a glitch in our stucture. It would be nice if 90% of our Socceroo team played in Australia thus allowing a much heavier concentration on get-togethers,training camps,trial matches against local HAL teams,under age teams,AIS teams etc etc but at the moment that cannot be, so we are left with the situation we are in at this time A word of warning re. the "great growth" being touted by the high ups in Australian football,it is a myth created by the unprecedented popularity in WSW created last year when they replaced the worst supported team in the competition. Add to that figure the reaction to the appearances of ADP at grounds around Australia & we got a great 18% growth on the preceding season's attendance figures.While it is early days yet in this season,after an expected "first day" excitement when we were told about our first 100,000 total gate.already things have settled back to a growth figure of around 1% for 10 matches.We have better TV ratings & provided the clubs sell themselves this could influence attendances but it should be remembered high TV ratings can mean more people will watch rather than attend so that "selling" I am talking about is very important. To get back to the Socceroos. They are a "brand" that if handled correctly has the abilty to galvanise our sport to an unprecedented level for they have the potential to combine the interests of every football person in the country under 1 banner,be they fans,officials,players,,juniors & parents & that is a figure that makes the mind boggle. Imagine a GOOD Socceroos team playing France,Brazil or Spain in Australia . Would it fill our largest stadia????? That's how important the Socceroo "brand" can become. Cheers jb