The last Kangaroos team to win a rugby league World Cup was the class of 2000.
I do not think that I watched a single game of that World Cup, or even had the slightest bit of interest in it (there was no point), but I did know that the 2000 Kangaroos were the best team in either code of rugby football by a significant margin.
Come 2013 that has changed. Since almost ridiculously being down 24-6 at half time against the USA in 2004 (how has that not been turned into a David versus Goliath sports movie?), Australia have never been quite the same.
They lost the 2005 Tri Nations in Stacey Jones’ last hurrah for the Kiwis, ending a couple of generations of international dominance.
They almost went down again in the 2006 Tri Nations final, managing to win with an extra time field goal, before losing the 2008 World Cup final and 2010 Four Nations.
Though the Kangaroos continue to cast a leviathan-like shadow over international rugby league, and could still make a claim to be the best rugby football team of either code in the world, they are clearly not what they once were.
Comparing the team that held the trophy aloft in 2000 with the team that played the opening game of the 2013 World Cup demonstrates a marked decline in football ability in the team.
1) Billy Slater versus Darren Lockyer
This is a tricky one because Billy Slater has one of the most complete fullback games ever.
In attack he can score tries from anywhere on the field with speed, agility and aggression in the contact.
In defence his ability to read plays, cover extensive amounts of ground and manipulate the ball carrier into not grounding the ball routinely means he is worth as many points in defence as he is in attack.
However, although he is a big game player, with things sometimes going wrong at inopportune times.
Lockyer had a mixture of speed, tenacity, gung ho spirit and football perspicacity that is rare.
If the scores were tight with 10 minutes to go, when the Broncos fullback Darren Lockyer grabbed the ball, opposition fans felt instant dismay.
Who would I pick? Lockyer. I want a player that can win close games over arguably the best positional fullback in history.
This may be controversial to some, but the decline of the Broncos since Lockyer’s retirement is vindication of this attitude for me.
2. Brett Morris versus Mat Rogers
98% of being a great player is working on the little one percenters, running hard, backing up and tackling hard.
Brett Morris represents a players that does this but probably lacks the other 2% of tactical specialness. A worthy representative player without a doubt who will not let anyone down.
Mat Rogers had speed, elusiveness and tactical nous to burn. There are not many wingers in the game like him today, which may suggest the salary cap has changed which position people with Rogers’ skill tend to play.
Rogers went on to have a successful career in union, including scoring the winning try in Australia’s last successful Bledisloe Cup campaign.
Who would I pick: Mat Rogers, though this would be different if a fit and healthy Jarryd Hayne was playing wing.
3. Brent Tate versus Adam McDougall
For me this is a no brainer, some of selections are arguable either way but for me I could never possibly pick a player with a jaw like Brent Tate’s.
Oh and McDougall was a much better player with the ability to break tackles and be almost unstoppable from close to the line.
This might be a different selection if Justin Hodges was available, and would be closer if Jennings was picked at centre, but as it stands, McDougall was a class above Tate.
4. Greg Inglis versus Matt Gidley
Where do you start with Inglis? The self belief, the acceleration over the first 10 metres, the size, the elusiveness, the physical dominance, the ball skill or the ability of Inglis to have a big role at the big moments in the big matches.
A future immortal probably. We may never see his like again.
Gidley was a great player in his own right with a brilliant flick pass and pace to burn. Arguably a better “positional” centre than Inglis.
Who would I pick? Inglis, for his big game presence mostly and a couple of other reasons. It is a little bit unfair for Gidley in a way to have to be matched against arguably the player of this NRL generation.
Gidley was a better player than other Kangaroo players from both the 2000 and 2013 side that will be picked ahead of him.
5. Darius Boyd versus Wendell Sailor
Darius Boyd is probably the best second-man playmaker in the NRL right now.
He is also a player that won’t let you down. Probably not the best ‘winger’ in Queensland, let alone Australia. Lacks speed, tactical acumen and self belief.
Big and elusive with a great right foot step, Wendell Sailor is arguably the best rugby league winger of all time.
I wish there were highlights of his early days on youtube because even his highlights post-union career when he was bloated and lacked athleticism are still good.
Put simply, give this guy a bit of space and he would invariably score from 20 metres out. He was a significant part of the Broncos’ dominance of the Super League/NRL in the second half of the 90s.
Did not have the same success in Union due to poor coaching (good coaching is an imperative for cross code players) prior to 2006, which was probably his best year in Union under Ewen McKenzie, before being thrown under the bus by the Union hierachy after a positive cocaine test. Still managed to play 40 Tests.
Who would I pick: Wendell Sailor by a country mile
6. Johnathan Thurston versus Brad Fittler
JT will go down as one of the all time greats due to the success in his tenure at the Maroons, but it has not gone unnoticed that he has failed to play a major part in a premiership winning team and Kangaroos standards have declined since his debut.
Thurston has all the attributes of a great half. People talk about him as future immortal, but for me, and I know that this will be controversial, but there is still something lacking.
Brad Fittler is one of the all time greats, who along with Andrew Johns was a big part of the reason NSW were dominant in the 90s and early 2000s in Origin.
Fittler did everything there was to do in the game and was noted for his left foot step.
Fittler’s influence over games was proved in the last five years of his career, where he took the Roosters to four grand finals. In the two years after he retired, despite having a similar playing roster, they could not even make the finals.
His ability to control the outcome of a game at five-eighth was second to none.
Who would I pick? Brad Fittler. Fittler was never a part of losing Australian teams and his presence was often the difference in big NRL games and Origin. It’s a close thing.
7. Cooper Cronk versus Brett Kimorley versus Andrew Johns
Cooper Cronk is a solid half back with a complete skill set and with the ability to make game winning plays when they matter.
Andrew Johns was actually playing hooker for this game for reasons that will probably confuse footy historians for many years to come.
Kimmorley was a more elusive player than Cronk with more skills, but I would probably pick Cronk ahead of him.
However I am going to play a ‘deus ex machina’ and choose Andrew Johns at halfback over all of them.
Andrew Johns had the best short tactical kicking game I have ever seen, and was a 9.5/10 in all other facets. Simply the most complete halfback the game has ever seen, with the added benefit of being a big-match player.
Who do I pick? Andrew Johns
8. Matthew Scott versus Shane Webcke
We all know who will win this one. Thanks for showing up Matthew Scott.
No matter how many times Webcke got smashed in a game, he found it within himself to just dust himself off and run hard for his next hit up.
This is the foundation that all great teams need. Probably the best prop of the modern era.
Who would I pick? Webcke
9. Cameron Smith versus Andrew Johns
Seeing that I have already picked Andrew Johns at no.7, this leaves the number nine uncontested for Cameron Smith. Luckily for me, Smith will probably be the next immortal.
10. James Tamou versus Robbie Kearns
Who will I pick? I will take Tamou over Kearns. More athletic and less likely to bring internal problems into the team.
11. Greg Bird versus Gorden Tallis
Greg Bird is a highly skilled forward with a lot of grit about how he goes about his business.
Tallis was simply an angry man on a football field. With Pro-Wrestling theatrics paradoxically mixed with a humble persona, he is arguably one of the biggest head cases to lace up the boots… and that is saying a lot if you follow the NRL.
Who would I pick? Tallis. The energy and charisma that Tallis exuded on the field was second to none.
Put simply, no team that Tallis was in was ever going to be steamrolled by a bigger team, or not physically dominate a smaller team.
12. Sam Thaiday versus Bryan Fletcher
Sam Thaiday just has the perfect physique for collision impacts over 10 metres. He also has charisma, presence and charm.
Fletcher was a solid, hard-working second rower.
Who would I pick? Sam Thaiday
13. Paul Gallen versus Scott Hill
Paul Gallen is metre chewer who runs hard and aggressively every time and likes to have an impact on the big moments in games, though he is yet to really stamp his authourity on an Origin series.
Scott Hill was a competent ball player with a big physique that never let his teammates down.
Who would I pick? Gallen, but saying that I would probably pick Fletcher ahead of him.
Interchange:
14. Robbie Farah
15. Andrew Fifita
16. Luke Lewis
17. Corey Parker
18. Jarryd Hayne
19. Nate Miles
vs
14. Trent Barrett
15. Nathan Hindmarsh
16. Darren Britt
17. Jason Stevens
The only player of today that would get a start is Andrew Fifita over Darren Britt.
All in all, the players of today are weaker across the board than they were 13 years ago in the Kangaroos.
John z
Guest
I don't know how you could choose fitler over Thurston. I believe thirston is the best playmaker rugby league has ever seen. Better than John's and I'm a staunch new south welshman. Interesting to read though.
Peter
Guest
You pick James Tamou and Sam Thaiday, are you kidding me? The other selections are fine....but those two??
I'mastormtrooper2
Guest
Hoping The Roar don't mind links ??? Two on the Top 10 - with differing opinions ... And a link to books on Rugby League's greatest players ... Perhaps we should all take time to study some facts ... Of course nostalgia and terminologies, like "The Little Master", "The King", statues, or what League Commentators and experts convey every weekend of the league season, about "who is the greatest", or who is likely to be a future Great, Immortal or Legend ... Who knows of the modern day players is going to "SUPERCEDE" the players of the last 50 years or 100 for that matter - The long list of talented players whose feats have been etched in our hearts. It goes without saying that not everyone is going to agree with each other ... Not sure the players give a rats !!! Enjoy your weekend and make sure you're up early tomorrow morning to barrack on the Aussie's, even if there is some bias for those who play for our individual league clubs ... :-) http://www.thetoptens.com/top-10-rugby-league-players/ http://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/the-long-awaited-list-of-the-top-ten-rugby-league-players-revealed/story-fndujljl-1226401697268 http://www.newholland.com.au/product.php?isbn=9781742570426
Jackson Henry
Guest
Hmmm. I’d go with Fittler actually. Thurston is very good, but in all honesty, I think his value is a little inflated. One of the real reasons behind his performances at Origin level was the fact that he played alongside real leaders – like Lockyer and Smith. This meant that he didn’t have the pressure of having to carry the team – have a look, for example, of his error counts at Origin level. The number of times I would breathe a sigh of relief when Queensland was in our 20 and Thurston would die with the ball or crowd his runners and then produce a nothing play was interesting. I never feared him to the same extent that I did Lockyer – and do Cronk, for that matter. Plus, there’s the fact that he’s never really won anything without those other guys in whatever team he’s playing in. The Cows had one of the best rosters in the comp for a number of years consecutively…but perennially underachieved. As the dominant player in those teams, it’s hard to argue with the fact that he plays a dominant role in that series of results. Fittler, in my opinion, had that Lewis, Johns, Lockyer sense about him. Johns won 1.5 comps, Lockyer won 3.5 comps and, from what I hear, Lewis was just above everyone else generally. Unlike Fittler, Thurston has zero premierships.
Jackson Henry
Guest
Agreed with Renegade – while it’s a pretty decent argument as to whether Lockyer was the ‘most dominant’ player we’ve seen, he was the ‘greatest’ – and allow me to elaborate here on what I see as the difference. First, in terms of playing style, he generally preferred to be the secondary playmaker somewhat and liked to sit back and analyse the opposition’s defensive line while someone else steered the side around the park. Then, when he saw a weakness, he would strike. This was a highly likely a result of both his temperament and the way his playing career evolved during his formative years – as a bit of an introvert, he wasn’t overly fond of having his hands on the ball all the time - and his formative years were spent playing alongside Langer and Walters who the dominant playmakers – meaning he really had to pick and choose when he would call for the ball. These two things complemented each other and really defined his playing style. So he wasn’t necessarily ‘dominant’, (although Lockyer’s many fans would probably say he was, and it’s not an unreasonable argument). But getting back to Renegade’s point, he is ‘the greatest’ because he did things that are highly unlikely to be replicated in Rugby League history – by anyone. As Renegade says, ‘Lockyer won more games when it mattered than any other player’. Absolutely. This is almost incontrovertible, and I’d add that it was consistently done at every level of Rugby League – be it with the Broncos, Queensland or Australia. Second, he was the driving force behind the most successful Origin dynasty in Rugby League history – as Thurston, Smith and Slater all said at different times, ‘Locky’s the man’. And he was the leader. Then, there’s the fact that he won the Golden Boot twice in two different positions. I can’t imagine anyone ever doing this – or any of those other things I’ve mentioned either. So ‘most dominant’? Maybe? The ‘Greatest’? Without doubt.
I'mastormtrooper2
Guest
Ok, I'll agree not to disagree with that ... Go the Aussie's this weekend against the Irish - Slater, Cherry-Evans, Cronk, Hayne, Morris, Morris and Tate ... Thurston rested - News is that Inglis (knee) and Scott (finger) are resting niggling injuries, but expected to play in the next game ...
Renegade
Roar Guru
Stormtrooper, That sentence of mine should have finished as "than any other player I've seen" ;)
I'mastormtrooper2
Guest
Renegade - Quote - "I just know Darren Lockyer won more games when it mattered than any other player." ,.. Then "the greats", "hall of famers", "immortals" ??? Show me the stats to back that up ... I believe he should be considered for recognition, but what will be your mind set if he doesn't ??? There are so many who didn't or haven't, for whatever the reason, and some that are still up for consideration, surely Meninga - I think being a "Captain" gives a player more weight, but that should not be a pre-requisite ... What do they say, "don't ask what your sport can do for you, ask, what you can do for your sport" !!! For my mind, that is where you will find the real champions of rugby league and don't get enough recognition ... Referee's and Coaches for instance ...
Renegade
Roar Guru
Goal kicking doesn't influence my opinion on the player. I just know Darren Lockyer won more games when it mattered than any other player. When the time came to look for your champion player to stand up and deliver, that is exactly what Lockyer did at club, state and international level. It's hard to compare between the two however if we're talking about the fullbacks on show right now, Slater is the best of the lot. In regards to your question "If you had the choice of picking the Fullback for the 2000 and 2013 finals, between Slater and Lockyer, with the Queensland and Australian teams most noted – Slater@1,Smith @9, Thurston @7 Cronk @6 and Inglis@4 … Who would you drop to fit in Lockyer ???" Easy - Lockyer would be five-eighth without doubt..... Cronk would have to make way for him.
I'mastormtrooper2
Guest
Oops - I mean a goal - Billy wouldn't kick a foal :-/ ... Also forgot to throw in a few Hookers ., Elias, Poponis and Walters, in fact add in Terry Lamb and Walters two brothers - They're Queenslanders after all !!!
Johnno
Guest
Joey's 2000 origin cameo's off the bench were hailed as the most dominant and influental bench impact efforts ever. Like Tallis's bench impact at the dragons. Joey in game 2 origin 2000 off the bench playing hooker was awsome, him and toovey combo. Blues wrapped up the series game 2 in 2000.
I'mastormtrooper2
Guest
Sense and sensibility at last !!! It's very difficult to split hairs regardless of who the player is or what era they played ... The topic is comparing players from different era's playing in the same positions ... Firstly, can I ask, if a player is a goal kicker does that sway your opinion ??? Slater, is not even remotely thought of in goal kicking circles, but he can boot a foal from the side line (check out youtube) ... I compare goal kickers to goal kickers - I thought Lockyer was a good goal kicker, but not rated against the games best ever ... If you had the choice of picking the Fullback for the 2000 and 2013 finals, between Slater and Lockyer, with the Queensland and Australian teams most noted - Slater@1,Smith @9, Thurston @7 Cronk @6 and Inglis@4 ... Who would you drop to fit in Lockyer ??? Then If you had the pleasure of choosing between Clive Churchill, Graeme Langlands, Wally Lewis, Alfie Langer, Peter Sterling, Brett Kenny, Mal Meninga, Steve Ranouf, Laurie Daley, Brad Fittler, Matthew Johns and Andrew Johns - talent and goal kickers in that mix ... Would any of them be selected or sitting on the bench ... Each era has their fist full of great players bringing their individual talent and abililty, but most don't progress and or excel without being in a great team ... Slater, like Lockyer may not be able to sustain his athleticism in the fullback position, but like Locky he too would prefer to change to 5/8th to continue his career ... And, there is good reason why there is a bone of contention when someone brings this type of conjecture and or debate to the table.
ctar
Guest
The Johns/Fittler combo was never as great as people seem to remember, especially in Origin. They actually failed at Origin when they were paired together in the halves. The Daley/Stuart halves combo won 3 origin series in a row for the blues from 92-94. The Johns/Fitler combo didn't win a single series together. Johns played at hooker in 96 and came off the bench in 2000. I'm sick of hearing how dominant Fitler and Johns were at origin cause they weren't.
Ken
Guest
I respectfully suggest that time might have dulled your memory of Lockyer at fullback. He was dynamic even if he obviously never had the size of GI. Actually, with the development of the fullback role, it's interesting to wonder whether Lockyer would have every made the move to the halves if the decision was to be made today.
Renegade
Roar Guru
You don't remember Lockyer being a playmaker at fullback?? I think you need to try and find some replays of him playing in the number 1 jersey. He was already a legend then, moving to five-eighth and dominating more just solidified it. Slater is the best fullback for me however Lockyer is the better overall player.
I'mastormtrooper2
Guest
No, I haven't forgotten ... Or the dribble from commentators about "Super-Hayne" - Remember when he was put up on a pedestal - He hasn't quite recovered from the fall ... Then in 2012 the name on everyone's lips was Barba - What went wrong there ??? What will 2014 bring ??? I had to hold my breath when they started throwing Dugan's name into the equation - For God's sake, give the league players a break !!! They are simply men, most from the school of hard knocks, who choose to play a sport, because they don't excel at anything else, and are paid extremely well, because the expectations are high - When they're hot they're hot, when they're not, they are hung out to dry ... I simply hate the media building up the profiles of players who are really yet to prove themselves ... I believe, that should not be determined until they have played a position for 10 plus years and their record speaks for themselves - A true champion stands in no one's shadow ... Remember Belcher ... Darren was compared to him ... I certainly don't recall Lockyer as a play maker at Fullback, he only did that when he changed to 5/8th - Then he was compared to Wally Lewis (THE KING), But, he didn't quite meet his league ability and neither did Johns (Johns was an exceptional goal kicker) ... So was Halligan ... Darren was good too ... FACT IS:- Darren Lockyer's legacy is that he played n two different postions, at an exceptional high standard - He was a great leader of his State and National teams and he's giving back to the game he loves ... Best Fullbacks - Slater, Langlands and Churchill ... My father-in-law was the Fullback and goal kicker for Queensland in 1964, and I'm not about to argue with him on that ...
Rod
Guest
I personally don't rate either the 2000 team or this team as great kangaroo sides. I can't fathom how you think Sailor is the best winger to play the game. That said there are some great players in both sides 2000, Lockyer, Fittler , Tallis , Webke and Johns great players , better forward pack, equal in the spine ,slightly weaker back line 2013 Slater, Inglis, JT, Smith, I think the forwards are strong without really any standout players, better back line than 2000
Johnno
Guest
Minichello and Stewart have had shocking runs with injury far worse than Slater. And Mincehello is 3years older than Slater different stage of there careers.
Muzz
Guest
Good call.Its hard to split those two.
Patrick
Guest
A young Darren Lockyer was a great athlete. The matches were based on the team rosters of RLWC 2000 final and RLWC2013 opening match. Slater is a great player, the reason I chose Lockyer is because I would prefer him to Slater if the team was down by 4 points with 10 minutes to go. Immortal status confuses me, it forgets some great players. Was Johns a definitively better player than Peter Sterling, or Lewis a better player than Brett Kenny?