How to make the NRL great again

Interesting points Sportsfan. But in response, because I know you're chafing at the bit waiting for the Bears verbose response...is it ever any different? The following is noted 1. On average the League has increased the number of teams by two about every 13 years. As it is just about due for the next two to be included, that means if they are added in 2015, then by 2041, just a little later than I said, there still should be 6 more teams added. And there are many reasons teams play poorly and its not necessarily just the quality of the players. Coaching is a major factor these days. Harmony in the club etc. But I still contend the bottom clubs today are much better than the bottom clubs 30 years ago. 2. Most rugby league players go to England because their clubs cant afford to keep them financially and other clubs are now much more interested in the cheaper young up and comers than a good first grade player aged 28. SuperLeague pays big bucks for them to play there. At one stage there were over 50 Australian players playing in that comp and the majority in first grade. If there was more room financially for a club to keep a player they would. Look at how many come back when needed. 3. How many Australian Rules players from NSW played Australian Rules before the Swans. The answer is not many and mainly from the Riverina area. Today there are 52 NSW players playing in the AFL. Point is until money is poured in and opportunities arise, and good coaching is offered, you wont get many from any of those regions except NZ where they play RU and can adapt easier to RL. It takes time and development, just as it was for the Swans and Lions. I dont think there was a NSW player in the first Swans team. One or two played for other clubs in the early 1980s. 4. Single city teams usually find it easier to secure sponsorship. Ask Brisbane, they're rolling in it. Perth is very wealthy and there's little doubt that a successful team would attract big money support. New Guinea is on the verge of a mining boom with Australian, Canadian and especially Chinese interest pouring money into the country to secure mining rights. New Zealand has a smaller economy but only one other league side so competing for the dollars is easier than for a Sydney club. 5. Sure they shouldnt be relying so heavily on TV sponsorship, but tell Australian Rules that. As long as the media have an investment in a high rating game, they will pay big money to hold onto it, All Smith is saying is that we need to diversify, be more imaginative in how we secure sponsorship. 6. As I said the question of quality is dependent upon what you are used to. There will always be teams with poorer quality and others with higher quality, no matter if you have 8 teams or 28. The SuperLeague teams had a competition of 8 teams and quite frankly the quality was pretty average. I maintain quality is only related to opportunity to play to the best standard. Watch a first grade player playing reserves. He often plays just a little better than other players because the challenge isnt there. Playing against a large number of the best lifts everyones standard. 7 Suggesting that they will play first grade only if they are good enough is an unprovable comment. You cant know that. All I can suggest is that if you look at some players on the scrap heap picked up by other clubs and suddenly becoming champions with other clubs you realise there are other factors than sheer talent at play. Example, what if Manly had kept Hodkinson and kept Cherry-Evans in reserves. He wasnt being looked at seriously by other clubs. Could have been picked up and without the training given by halves Toovey and Joey Johns, he may have ended up in England well before his time. There was nothing to say he was going to be that good. In answer, I am basing my comments on facts. As I said since the 1940s the League has added two teams every 13 years. There's no dreaming there that another 6 teams will be added by the next 2-3 decades. It is consistent with the development of League to date. .

SPM I wish to clarify one iof your points.The reason Cronulla is struggling with main sponsorship has less to do with the economy,but much much more, to do with the ongoing ASADA issue. The club in fact has had about 2-3 companies who pulled out at the last minute due to this . Until the issue is resolved ,this no doubt will continue. Wests were struggling ,but they now have Meriton. There is a bloke by the name of Fonua ,who is a born aand bred Victorian who starred for the Storm on Saturday. And there are other locals in the junior teams.

My opinion is based on having attended the GC for holidays for 4 decades from staying at Kirra,Tugun,Currumbin,Surfers,Broadbeach..I suggest I don't have to be a local to understand the heat ,humidity and the conditions prevailing at CBus stadium.I have attended a semi final there and about half a dozen other games.I have also been there when the beaches have been closed.Catching the bus from near Pacific Fair. In fact I attended ARL matches when the GC Giants were playing at Seagull's stadium at Tweed heads when John Sattler was part of the ownership syndicate ,well before the Titans were on the horizon. I also live in Sydney in a beachside suburb all my life,and and fully conversant with the effect of beach closures..The only stadium I have not attended on the GC BTW , was Carrara. My mother in law spent many years living in Currumbin and played bowls for Tweed Heads. You as a'"sport's fan(yet displaying an AFL club logo) lecturing me on NRL initiatives,I am aware of the Titan's promotional activities,it was hardly a secret. Exaggeration LOL,I was sweating like a pig on one occasion I have sweltered there myself and would not take my family in those conditions.The beaches closed affect would be minimal on attendance ,people at the stadium the commentators etc complained about the heat/humidity.People especially families tend to watch something in comfort without being fried.Even out of the sunny side,people felt the heat. I don't have to ;live in Darwin to know the extremes of weather and the effect it has .I don't have to be a drinker to know the effects of alcohol.Living in a place is fine,but people have the ability to visit on a regular basis and I sure as hell have done that with the GC with mates firstly then family. Play the game for example at 7-30pm and see the difference or even 5-30pm. The only point with which I concur,is Searle going to deep with the COE,which got him offside with many tradies . There is a new administration/owner though Searle is still there,and Annersley as CEO will no doubt bring some commonsense into scheduling. After all it was Searle who pushed for the Tiitan's entrée into the NRL.The CEO in theory was a great idea,but the GFC was not. How do you know there is no way of paying out the coach?Cronulla paid out a coach years ago and they were skint.Thta's not to say Cartwright will go.

Bearfax 1. You assume because the Aus population will grow by 36% there is a direct correlation with the number of first grade players available? Give me a spell - at the moment in a 16 team competition we see at least 2-3 teams every year put in a shocking season and you want an additional 6-7 teams? All this will do is increase the number of rubbish games in empty stadiums per season and bring with it the added costs of stadium hire, wages, administrative costs etc. 2. A lot of blokes go to England and France at the end of their careers - if you want a couple of Dad's Army type teams in the NRL this will do nothing to add QUALITY to the product. Now not every player that goes overseas is at the end but the majority are and their best days are behind them. 3. I do agree that there is potential in those areas, Perth being at the bottom of the list however. The NRL has also been in Melbourne since 1998 and how many stars have emerged from Victoria so far? Perth is another long long term project, NZ and PNG probably has a more readily available player base. 4. Sponsorship - There are teams in the NRL currently that are struggling to attract sponsors e.g. Cronulla, Wests etc. There is not an endless amount of corporate dollars flying around and certainly not enough for an additional 6 teams. Also NZ has an economy smaller than WA so adding a second team to a small country with numerous professional rugby sides already means a scrap for corporate dollars not immediate funds. 5. Dave Smith, who is in a much better position than both you or I, has openly stated that the NRL need to stop being so heavily reliant on TV money and make at least 50% of its revenue outside of TV $$. Your plan is simply add more teams get more money - its not always going to work like this into the future. 6. No doubt the game is bigger, faster stronger than years gone by - that does not mean that there is enough quality for plenty of additional teams. 7. If they are good enough they will play first grade. It is up to the clubs to scout, recruit and develop better and I don't subscribe to the theory that there would be plenty missing out on NRL action today. A few maybe, a lot - unlikely. Are you dreaming regarding an additional 7 teams in the next few decades - Yes you certainly are. It is not economically viable or commercially responsible to add teams infinitum in any sports league in Australia. Quality not QUANTITY is what made the NFL in the USA a powerhouse sport , even though its confined to only one country.

Crosscoder from memory you are a Sydney resident and holiday occasionally to the GC correct? Well my comment is based on someone that lives here full time, not just popping in for holidays. Day time fixtures are affected by people going to the beach and all the activities that are associated with being at the beach. Sunday the wind was up and the beaches closed - that put some benefit towards the Titans game. Secondly - they had heavily promoted the "kids get in free" with a paying adult aspect of the game all week. It was in the GC Bulletin everyday from the Saturday before the Cronulla game. People were aware that the game was on. The Stadium does have a problem with the Eastern Stand being directly in the sun for day time fixtures, however the western stand and both northern and southern stands are in the shade - plenty of seats there for fans to not sit in the sun. Having been to plenty of fixtures at Robina I don't recall the stadium "radiating heat" - that is a total exaggeration. Now the NRL has showed in the previous seasons and confirmed it this season more than ever that they have the teams that they favour and teams they couldn't care less about - Titans and Raiders off the top of my head are at the bottom of the list. Michael Searle and the previous administration can take plenty of blame for the current situation that the Titans find themselves in. They burnt the community with the Centre of Excellence witha lot of locals involved not getting paid for that debacle and signing a coach to a 6-year deal then subsequently not making the finals since 2009 with no way of paying out a sacking. They have plenty of work to do to bring back the fans and the weather is a but one aspect and a nice distraction for the current CEO to focus on.

Give me a break SFM.I have been to that stadium with temperatures less than that at daytime,when I have been on hols on Broadbeach.It was uncomfortable to say the least. Beached being closed ,does not impact intolerable conditions at a stadium at a ridiculous timeslot.The club itself(all locals) did not want the game at that time.Taking young families in a stadium that radiates heat in the near middle of the day,is fraught with danger.I wouldn't have gone with my family when they were youngsters.Regardlkes of freebies for kids ,which are not unique in codes BTW. People in fact saying they were lucky to get 12,000,which compared to some of the Sydney crowds pretty favourably.They should all be awarded medals. It is two things a matter of scheduling,just like it is a matter of scheduling for Raider's games at tomes commensurate with the weather expectations. Secondly I agree no coach unless they are a Bellamy,is worthy of a 3 year plus contract.

The point you miss Clipper.the Reds averaged the 13,000 nearly 20 years ago,and Perth's population has swelled since then with many coming from the East Coast.My nephew and his family moved there 5 years ago.He is a Dragons supporter and rl fan in general. Again you do not understand when the court cases came into full swing for SL in 95/96,and SL was given the green light,.the Reds were not the only RL club to take a hit. More so when the club decided to go again the ARL and go to Super league.That got many traditionalists off side . Again you don not research the matter ,by glibly showing stats,and overlooking(by choice or nature) at the underlying reasons and facts for those stats ,and the resultant Red's situation and eventual demise. Seeing they are averaging mid 15,000s plus for NRL games played over there.Noting they have the financial backing of local people and a large company wanting to get on board.Aware of the fact there are more participating juniors now than there were when the Reds were at their zenith.Your expected cynicism reeks of hollowness. . They are not in the position the Storm (who expect to break even in 5 years) are in,with a media that is not as giving as the WA ones.Nor will the NRL be spending $20m pa on establishing the club for 10 years,they don't need to.A precedent has been set with a team prior,and at least a following. BTW as you brought the Storm into the debate, the crowd for the Storm v Panthers game on Saturday, was the highest crowd in Melbourne between those two sides.

I once had a pet Queenslander, horrible thing it was. All it liked doing was to steal the food from my other pets, bite them if I gave the others any attention and crap all over the place. No matter how well I looked after it the mongrel was never happy. The thing believed it owned the entire property, wanted to push the others into the most uncomfortable spots. While the others took pleasure in entertaining me, my Queenslander moped around licking it's nuts and digging up the garden until there was nothing left but rubbish. A mate said I should just get rid of it but it was so unlovable no one would take it.It was part of the family although it wanted nothing to do with the rest of us. The final straw came when it bit the hand that fed it. I couldn't shoot it so I returned it to it's natural habitat. I've heard it joined a pack of sandgropers and kumuls and is having the time of it's life. The lesson I learned was don't try to tame your Queenslanders, leave them alone to do whatever they want. Just don't try to raise them amongst others. It's cruel and will never work.

Well you see Sportsfan, that's because I suspect you are looking at the game in isolation rather than in the broader and long term sense. 1. The present population of Australia is about 22 million. In two decades its anticipated to be at least 30 million. Thats about a 36% increase. That also means there are likely to be 36% more first grade level players available or the equivalent of almost 6 extra teams by 2034. 2. How many players have been sent to England and France because of the salary cap. I would suggest there are at least 2 first grade sides of Australian Rugby League players there at this time. 3. How many potential first grade players are likely to emerge in W.A. if they are given quality coaching, finances, experience playing the best players. How many in NG which has a population of 6 million. How many more in NZ who may switch from Union if a second league side appeared. 4. Sponsorship readily comes with teams that represent an area. Perth is big business and would excite a lot of sponsorship if a successful side promoted their image. Same for NZ, same for NG. Same for any area where a business operates in. 5. TV sponsorship would increase proportionate to the viewership. A team in Perth on prime time on one of their channels raises potential viewers there as it does in other sites. The greater the viewership, the greater the sponsorship. 6. I have been watching rugby league since the mid 60s. I remember some very ponderous games during the unlimited tackle era...there was St George, Souths and daylight. Since the limited tackle rules, the game has improved markedly. But was it better in the past. I think you may have rose coloured glasses if you say yes. There were few games televised and though some televised were exciting, others were boring. The game today is much faster, much more clinical, players are much fitter and have a higher skill rate on average. Our problem today is that we have been spoilt by top rating games especially in the State of Origin matches and we have come to accept that as the norm. But even a top side playing in the 70s would be defeated by most sides playing in the NRL today. The standard is much higher. 7. Finally there are many potential young first graders who never get the opportunity for one reason or another. Look at the players Manly have recently bought who were dumped by teams from the lower half of the comp and are now being considered for SOO. Good coaching and opportunity often determine if someone makes it or doesnt, and I suspect there are a large number of ex Rugby League juniors out there who could easily have made first grade but for unseen potential, poor coaching or missing out on selection by someone equally as talented. Happens a lot. And you'll find that though lower grades look ordinary, as they always have looked, when a player comes into firsts, if he has the potential, his game moves up to another level. They play to the level of the game being played. Am I dreaming regarding another 7 teams in the next few decades. No. I'm under-estimating.

Im comparing what works on other codes. Populations obviously play apart overseas. But look at how big Sydney is and there hasnt been a sell out at a home game yet in the NRL this season. Western Sydney and Sydney FC turn out bigger crowds than NRL teams yet there in the same city? Talking about home grand finals in other codes like NFL and Rugby Union its about sharing the final experience around. Toowoomba doesn't have much, but if they did have an NRL they would support it. The Q-Cup side in Toowoomba used to play at 2pm Saturday. Peak time where all loccal junior and senior footy would be played across all codes. Q-Cup doesnt produce big crowds as it is, all I was pointing out in my article was the fact a "trial game" was a sell out. Having a local based NRL team verus existing teams (because everyone already has a team) I could not see how it wouldn't go well! I am a Penrith Panthers member but I would support my local team

Bearfax - what effect is an additional 7 teams going to have on the quality of the product? There are teams today in the 16 team comp that dish up rubbish every second week (see Parra) and you want and extra 7 teams?? Absolutely dreaming. If you want more league then watch the NSW or QLD Cup for a drop in quality compared with the NRL.

Cathar - it was 2pm and its Autumn not summer. This is standard weather for us living on the GC in March. It should have given the Titans a massive leg up training in this weather for the past 2-3 months in the pre-season. Cartwright has had his time but due to Searle previously signing him to a big money 6 year deal it is not feasible for a Club with no cash to pay him out and install another coach in his place. The Titans had the benefit of GC beaches being closed due to dangerous swell on Sunday as well as running a promotion of kids attending free with a paying adult for an entire week and still only got 12,000. Scheduling and promotion of the game needs a massive improvement from head office for the Titans. Just up the highway the Broncos have a great start to the season with massive Friday night exposure very week for the first 10 rounds.

Ronald - Pretty interesting that you dismiss the sporting culture of an entire state with throwaway lines such as: "There is no live NRL match for them to go to of course they are going to go to an AFL match and you know what ?, they do this for long enough and they will start to think they are enjoying it and then that is another fan lost to league" Get out from your pigeon holed view of the country and travel to the West and see what its all about. FWIW I think that a Perth team needs to come in but to suggest that AFL is only popular because the NRL is not there is arrogant, ignorant and shows a lack of education of the city of Perth and the state of WA.

I guess the point also is that they only had three years in the comp 1995-1997 and that was also during the SuperLeague dispute when half the comp played elsewhere. All crowds in Rugby League esp Murdocks group fell dramatically in 1997 because League was suddenly on the nose. But when the Reds first appeared in 1995, they averaged 14,860, better than many Sydney clubs. But they also performed well coming in at 11th out of 20 teams. They had one 24,000 crowd in Perth during that year. But they slumped to 16th the following year and were in financial difficulties. Their average went down to 7928. They improved marginally as one of the 8 super league teams averaging 9528 but came in last. Point is they were a new club, not yet established and in the last 2 years sitting at the bottom end of the comp. Actually their crowds in the first year were better than Melbourne's first year and Melbourne early on had an average of only 9000 one year. They are now consistently over 14000 average because they are competitive. Give Perth the same advantages and I think they'll surpass Melbourne for crowd averages a decade down the track

Maybe so Clipper. But what I'm saying is that the potential is there. They have had crowds over 20,000 for certain League matches, so the interest is there. You just need to ensure good promotion and good games.

The key phrase is 'used to average 13,000'. They certainly weren't averaging that when they were culled, more like 8,000. Still, if they can average 8,000 and keep receiving money like the Storm, then why not put a team there, as long as you've got money to support them.

So you would prefer no Rugby League on the north shore/northern beaches at all. Hand it over to RU, soccer or Aus Rules. Not too smart that. Better idea would be to incorporate the two areas into one club...call it what you like but keep League there. The two areas together would easily meet your criteria once the intransigents from both areas recognise that's the best way to survive.

The Western Reds team used to average a 13,000 crowd, so it seems there was some interest there. And I suspect the interest in W.A. would be greater than it was in Melbourne, because there are a lot of ex pat NSW people who have moved to the west. Perth has a small but relatively healthy Rugby League comp with seven sides and reserves, and two other sides affiliated for future inclusion. The Pilbara also has a 5-6 team competition. Add to that that Perth under the 'Pirates' logo play junior comps such as the SG Ball against NRL clubs. So League is not unheard of there and I suspect it has a greater groundswell of support than NSW and QLD had for Australian Rules before teams were included in the national competition. I suspect like the Sydney and Brisbane Australian Rules sides, the game would blossom over a few decades and become quite competitive with Australia Rules , and maybe even surpass it.

And herein lies a big part of the problem. The governing body needs to wrestle back control of the game instead of gifting the rewards to those who don't give a sh.t! We have the NRL and clubs seeking loyalty (hard earned money) from fans via memberships before even a ball has been kicked, and we see little given back. Souths chief executive was quoted last week as saying; “I don’t care about the crowd numbers,”.......... “I care about the yield. Who cares about the look?” Playing Melbourne v Manly at AAMI park round 1 instead of Brookvale would have made more economic sense (particularly in an AFL free weekend), but whilst Nine have control of the schedule, it seems to be every man for himself.

I did say over a few decades. The League on average adds two teams every 13-15 years.. Two in 2016, two in 2030, two in 2043. That's only three decades away and you've already got 6 of the 7. Maybe some teams will relocate, some will vanish. But that scenario is consistent with League development to date. And the League need to expand if it truly wants to maintain its support. Keep smiling