Ranvet to determine the best: Fiorente or It’s A Dundeel

By Justin Cinque / Expert

In an era of racing that will be defined by early retirements, multi-million-dollar stud deals and protected career records, it is refreshing to be looking forward to a heavyweight clash on the weekend.

The best two horses in active training in Australia – Fiorente and It’s A Dundeel, (listed in alphabetical order) – will clash in Saturday’s Ranvet Stakes (2000m, Group 1, weight-for-age) at Rosehill in Sydney.

It’s an important race, because Fiorente and It’s A Dundeel will duel for the title of the best horse in the country.

As I wrote two weeks’ ago, The Championships in mid-April will determine the horse that exits the season as the nation’s best.

At The Championships, we will learn who the best sprinter and middle-distance horses are in Australian racing. Then, with so many questions hopefully answered, we can argue about just who is the best.

Some pundits, including the ABC’s race-caller Gerard Whateley, declared Fiorente the best horse in Australia after his victory in the Australian Cup (2000m, Group 1, weight-for-age) two weeks ago.

The Australian Cup matched-up the Cox Plate (2040m, Group 1, weight-for-age) winner Shamus Award with the Melbourne Cup (3200m, Group 1, handicap) winner Fiorente.

The Cox Plate and Melbourne Cup are widely regarded – at least they were until a few months ago – as the best two races in Australia.

So when Fiorente won the Australian Cup, with Shamus Award finishing sixth, Whateley tweeted immediately afterwards, “Splendid win by Fiorente in the Australian Cup. He’s the horse racing needs and he’s the best.”

But Fiorente did not ascend to the top of our racing ranks in the Australian Cup. He may’ve beaten the Cox Plate winner easily, but the Cox Plate winner was ranked ninth in my ‘Top 20 horses in Australian racing‘ piece at the end of last spring.

For the record, I had Fiorente six places higher in third.

Of course, Shamus Award beat Fiorente in the Cox Plate but, on balance, I’ve no doubt Fiorente is a superior galloper to Shamus Award.

In any event, I posted It’s A Dundeel at the top of Australian racing in that Top 20 article, with Happy Trails second, but Happy Trails is currently injured.

And even now, two weeks after It’s A Dundeel ran second in the Chipping Norton (1600m, Group 1, weight-for-age) on the same day Fiorente won the Australian Cup, I still have the Kiwi galloper, It’s A Dundeel, clinging to the title of Australia’s top horse.

Furthermore, since I wrote that Top 20 piece, the Cox Plate can no longer be regarded as one of the two best races on the local calendar.

That means the match-up between Cox Plate and Melbourne Cup winners in the Australian Cup wasn’t as telling as it usually would’ve been.

The recent $3.5m boost to make the Queen Elizabeth (2000m, Group 1, weight-for-age), a $4m race and the flagship race of the newly-formed Championships, has changed the landscape of Australia’s weight-for-age races.

The Queen Elizabeth – run on April 19 this year and towards the end of racing’s annual August-July season – will now boast more mature three-year-olds and superior prize-money to the Cox Plate.

The QE Stakes also enjoys genuine ‘grand final’ status. Last year, almost half the Cox Plate field used the race as their final Melbourne Cup lead-up.

I’m sure the Queen Elizabeth will be, from this year onwards, a better race than the Cox Plate. Certainly, it will reveal, as a minimum, the best middle-distance galloper in the country.

Fiorente or It’s A Dundeel: Who is better?
On Saturday, before the Ranvet is run, opinion about just who is the superior galloper will be divided.

But should one of the duo win decisively, they will take the title of Australia’s best horse into The Championships, almost unanimously. Then, they will have the chance to defend the billing.

Fiorente and It’s A Dundeel, both stallions, have met twice.

In the Memsie (1400m, Group 1, weight-for-age) last August, when they were both first-up, It’s A Dundeel, a four-year-old, was able to run to fourth. Fiorente, a six-year-old, was a further half-length away in sixth.

Both gallopers weren’t at their favourite distance or peak fitness, and they didn’t have a lot of luck. It was largely inconclusive.

In the Underwood (1800m, Group 1, weight-for-age), racing second-up in the spring, It’s A Dundeel became the only horse to beat Atlantic Jewel, when he prevailed in a driving finish.

It was his fifth Group 1 victory, his fourth of 2013 and his first in Melbourne, where racing is conducted in the anti-clockwise direction.

Fiorente and It’s A Dundeel met for a second time in the Cox Plate under completely different circumstances to the Memsie.

It’s A Dundeel had missed track-work and his final lead-up because of a hoof abscess. He raced wide in the Cox Plate and failed to fire before finishing eighth.

Fiorente, on the other hand, was positively outstanding in third. He too was trapped wide but did a mountain of work in the middle stages to take up a position near the lead.

Despite racing without cover and in a completely unfamiliar on-speed role, Fiorente was only beaten half a length in third.

Without surprise, he then won the Melbourne Cup, his maiden Group 1.

In the Australian Cup, Fiorente claimed his second Group 1 overall. Both top level successes have come at Flemington, on his Melbourne leg.

On Saturday, It’s A Dundeel and Fiorente meet for the first time in Sydney, where racing is conducted in a clockwise direction. Fiorente shouldn’t be affected by racing the opposite way. But It’s A Dundeel has always been more comfortable on his Sydney leg, where he has won eight times from 11 starts, with a further two second placings.

In Melbourne (the city that hosted their only other two meetings), It’s A Dundeel has only won once from five starts. He also has one second and three unplaced finishes.

At weight-for-age, the most revealing weight scale, It’s A Dundeel has a 1-4 win-loss record. Fiorente, in Australian races, has a more impressive 3-3 weight-for-age win-loss record. But two of those three victories came at Group 2 level.

It’s A Dundeel has only raced in Group 1-rated weight-for-age races. Group 1 weight-for-age racing is generally the highest level of racing in Australia.

Fiorente has won a single Grand Slam, the Melbourne Cup, but It’s A Dundeel hasn’t won any. It’s A Dundeel, however, is only one of five Australian three-year-old Triple Crown winners.

Fiorente has never run a poor race in Australia but he also has never won by a winning margin of a length or more since being imported from England.

When It’s A Dundeel won the Triple Crown, his winning margins across those three races were a half-length (Randwick Guineas, 1600m), six lengths (Rosehill Guineas, 2000m) and seven lengths (Australian Derby, 2400m).

It’s A Dundeel has never lost a close race. He has a 5-0 win-loss record when his official margin is less than a length. Twice I’ve been at the races when he has won after defeat looked certain 200m from the finish.

In Australia, Fiorente has a 4-2 win-loss record when his official margin is less than a length.

If it gets close on Saturday, I’d probably want to be in It’s A Dundeel’s corner but Fiorente is no novice when it comes to toughing out victory.

I hope we get to crown Australia’s best horse, even if only on an interim basis, on Saturday. But the Ranvet is not a two-horse race.

Foreteller, who won the Ranvet last year, has been racing well this autumn. He was a closing third in the Australian Cup and he ran fourth in the Cox Plate last year.

Hawkspur was fantastic in the Chipping Norton. He would’ve passed It’s A Dundeel in second in another 50m. But It’s A Dundeel lacked race fitness on that occasion.

In any case, Hawkspur finished alongside Fiorente in their only meeting outside of the Melbourne Cup, which coincidentally was over the Ranvet distance of 2000m, in October’s Turnbull (2000m, Group 1, set weights and penalties).

Finally, Carlton House, owned by Queen Elizabeth, has outstanding 2000m form in England. We are yet to see his best in Australia but he did show glimpses of it when running well in much lesser grade last start. He is capable of causing an upset.

In recent years, the Sydney Carnival has boasted time-honoured and prestigious races that couldn’t draw the nation’s best horses.

The Championships have restored Australian racing’s focus on Sydney in the autumn. Saturday’s Ranvet is the most anticipated renewal in at least a decade.

It should be advertised a clash of the titans. I expect it to deliver on its promise.

The Crowd Says:

2014-03-22T07:11:34+00:00

Blake

Guest


Cha-ching!

2014-03-21T22:42:17+00:00

Haradasun

Roar Rookie


favourites have a bad record here. I am still recovering from backing 5.5 star last year as he wobbled up the track like only a cummings favourite can. I think theseo was the last fav to win in 2010, correct me if I am wrong?

2014-03-20T21:26:10+00:00

kv joef

Guest


Fiorente is not only one of the best horses in aust but i think will prove himself to be one of the best in the world. have thought so for some time. he may even be beaten tomorrow as he is not wound-up with a couple of more lengths left in him yet. IAD is a fine thoroughbred of the highest quality and with Boban joining the mix, the autumn's top horse is a long way from decided. wouldn't be surprised if Carlton House finds himself near the top of the Doncaster charts after tomorrow. as for the cox and QE. well racing folk are pretty superficial ... once the epsom is finished, move onto the emirates and then the doncaster. so i would expect once the QE is done we all get ready for the spring again and bring on the cox. the melb. cup is, has always been and will always be aust's premier race. the rest are supporting acts.

2014-03-20T09:51:42+00:00

johnny nevin is a legend

Guest


The cock and bull?

2014-03-20T09:47:57+00:00

Andrew

Guest


i think you guys are somewhat overstating whether its a 'lead up' race or not. fact is, when the top shelf horses race in a cox plate 3rd up or 4th up, the are fully fit. i think its a silly argument trying to boost or diminish the credibility of a race. sure, i will cop it if people want to argue horses are underdone in august in a memsie stks, but not come cox plate day in late oct. on this approach, you could equally condemn the ranvet (i am not) as merely being a 'lead up' for queen elizabeth, or george ryder as lead up for doncaster. who cares.....most good horses dont have just one peak run in them per prep (some do, i accept). for the record, im taking the soft option. dundeel and fiorente quinella. it will pay $3, and is arguably easier to pick (and will pay better) than trying to split them and back one (and therefore effectively bet against the other)

2014-03-20T08:12:51+00:00

DJ

Guest


Kia Ora Justin et al, Thank you for an intriguing and scintillating insight into what promises to be one of the most highly anticipated features of the Autumn Carnival Of Kiwi descent, I am of course biased and hope the diminutive stallion from humble beginnings in the Waikato can slay the omnipotent and consistent invader from the North Either way, it will be a formidable contest between two fierce rivals, no less than a Bledisloe Cup match between the All Blacks and the Wallabies " Ka tū te wanawana: " We shall stand exalted in spirit ...

2014-03-20T04:43:07+00:00

Will Sinclair

Roar Guru


Kiwis and Poms. It's like a bad pub in Bondi Junction.

2014-03-20T04:38:10+00:00

Will Sinclair

Roar Guru


Hard to say - they are two of my favourite horses! Experience has taught me that these races, which everyone assumes will be a match race, might throw up an upset. And there is plenty of quality elsewhere in the race - maybe Foreteller or Hawkspur? Moriarty has been building and if you can forgive Sertorius his last... he's going OK too. I will probably finish up backing Fiorente. Hard fit and in form.

2014-03-20T00:13:07+00:00

Luke Andrews

Guest


Blake, I had a discussion with Justin a few weeks ago about this same thing. I am not convinced that he will run in the BMW either, but I do think he is up to it. Before his first two runs all the mounting yard talk was about his belly, so that does imply that there is still horse to work with. I also think the Australian Cup was targeted because Gai had never won it, and a $1million race wouldn't be too hard to sell to connections considering his form at Flemington. He also appears to be a horse who can handle racing. He is not a fragile animal, and he has peaked previously at the end of a campaign. The training challenge is keeping enough speed in his legs, hence why a freshen up before the QE does make sense. I have a serious doubt on the BMW as a QE lead up. Dropping back to 2000m in two weeks against horses (such as Boban) that will be bringing in more leg speed will be tough for any horse and trainer.

2014-03-20T00:01:52+00:00

Luke Andrews

Guest


I can't really agree, as big lead up races add to the momentum building towards the big day. No one has ever said the Caulfield Cup takes away from the Melbourne Cup. It will serve to inform us about some of the big contenders and how they are shaping but this weekend is no ones GF. Imagine if they come away from the field and it's a driving finish that produces a photo. That would make everyone keen for the return bout and serve as further promotion for the Championships. Igniting the rivalry that is billed as the headline act for the carnival is a positive and I am glad to see two outstanding gallopers competing; as the clash between supreme equine athletes is what I see racing being all about. Added to this the depth that the QE will have compared to this race means it will still be the better contest. Boban at least is in the same class as Fiorente and IADD. I also see other horses emerging and adding even more intrigue.

2014-03-19T23:32:50+00:00

Blake

Guest


It is more perplexing than where flight MH370 is.

AUTHOR

2014-03-19T23:25:28+00:00

Justin Cinque

Expert


I definitely can see your point... Maybe the whole camp decided at the start of the prep that the BMW into QE would not be possible. Hence Fiorente started in Melb.

2014-03-19T23:23:34+00:00

Blake

Guest


Winning is good, no doubt. However, if I was an owner I would NOT be happy missing a $2m race when I've got the the would-be favourite. That said, Gai must have her reasons, she is thoroughly unlikeable, but she is not stupid.

AUTHOR

2014-03-19T23:18:44+00:00

Justin Cinque

Expert


Massive day for Guelph. I hope she can turn it around. The stable don't know why she has failed this prep.

AUTHOR

2014-03-19T23:16:13+00:00

Justin Cinque

Expert


I guess it's justifiable because he won both the Young and Aus Cup.

2014-03-19T23:13:32+00:00

Blake

Guest


The 2nd most interesting thing on Saturday is how Guelph runs. This is d-day for her. If she fails to fire again they might even retire her. When mares (I know she is still a filly, but come on, look at the size/maturity of her) go off the boil they rarely come back. Miss Finland anyone ?

2014-03-19T23:05:49+00:00

Blake

Guest


A Kiwi quinella: IAD Silent Achiever Fiorente Carlton House

2014-03-19T23:03:12+00:00

Blake

Guest


Start him in the $220K G2 and miss the $2.2m BMW. Not sure about that Gai. No way I would have taken him to Melb. Forget the Peter Young and the Aust Cup, the BMW and QE are the main game in the autumn. He should be first or second up this weekend.

AUTHOR

2014-03-19T22:55:52+00:00

Justin Cinque

Expert


Fair call Alfred. In the case of IADD especially, I agree.

2014-03-19T22:55:30+00:00

Blake

Guest


I agree with every word of that.

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