Carlton must shed past practices for future glory

In the age of the internet and Google, the factual errors in your comment are truly stunning. Setanta was brought to Carlton in 2005, 2 years before Ratten was signed as an assistant coach. He was upgreaded to the senior list at the start of 2006, again, a year before we would even make an appearance at the club. Aside from that, the insinuation that you should never pick up players who have "never played the sport", means you miss out on guns like premiership defender Kennelly, Brownlow Medallist Jim Stynes and current Brisbane defender Hanley. Prior to the 2012 season, which was marred by injuries, Ratten had taken the club from 15th to 5th and a kick away from a Preliminary final. In the 2012 season, Carlton won it's first three games, including beating Collingwood (a top 4 side from the previous year, a criticism that was thrown at Carlton during their 2011 campaign). It's first loss to Essendon saw them lose Carazzo (in form tagger) within the first few minutes and Laidler. A few weeks later we lost Murphy, Henderson and Duigan in a game against Adelaide.

Reading some of the comments from Carlton supporters above, you have to wonder whether the problems at Carlton run extend to their delusional supporter base. Blaming Satanta, blaming compromised drafts nearly 10 years ago, blaming the new coach, and calling for the return of non-triers like Garlett. As a Pies supporter, I'd be happy if the Blues followed the advice of those above, sacked everybody and spent another 20 years in the wilderness. John Hunt is probably closest to the truth when he notes that problems running this widely and this long are probably rooted in culture. Give Mick at least 'til mid-season to address the cultural issues, and if he can't do it, Carlton could do well to poach Jackson or Roos from Melbourne!

Oh and bring Waite garlette Robinson and bell and Watson back. If we can't win with our best 22 than so be it we will build for next year

I kinda like the fact the players have shut up a little bit this week. Last week they kept saying wait for the response against Melbourne demons.... It simply didn't come. The one thing I wanted this week was for the lads to shut up and just play on Sunday . Let the footy do te talking. If bulldogs are missing dalhaus roughhead an Murphy we should win. Malt house HAS to let the boys play. No more boundary line just play it as u see fit. If they go boundary line we will get pick off again play after play

Gene - Some of the other issues you alluded to were West Coasts drug problem but seeing as Cousins was at Richomnd by 2008 I think that issue wouldn't impact there 2011-2013 form and Adelaide did lose draft picks from the Tippett issue but as their punishment was "Adelaide has been fined $300,000 and prohibited from the first two rounds of the 2013 draft and from gaining father-son picks at that draft. The club can use first or second round picks if they are obtained by a trade." I am not sure how that effect them either yet. Again which is more plausible every club is afflicted by different problems or all clubs by the same problem. I too have looked for a complete list and been unable to find it but the names I have seen were quite impressive. The other thread was http://www.theroar.com.au/2014/04/16/afl-finals-berths-taking-shape/

and every one of those sides has had major issues besides just the draft. The draft is only part of the story. And until someone can provide exactly what the drafts of 2010-2012 would have looked like without concessions, you can not possibly make an accurate assessment of how much or how little the compromised drafts made. I've tried to look but I can't find anything near an accurate list of the 17 yr olds Gold coast took out in 2009 that would have been in the 2010 draft. We've already looked at the 2009 draft and agreed it was just a very weak draft overall (especially for talls), we can not make any assessment of the others without looking at the whole picture. PS: macca I refresh me what thread we were way off topic in re: best 22 and I will try to respond asap.

Also again - this is about more than just Carlton - every mid tier club has stagnated.

Who? The Cats currently have 9 players 29 or over Enright, JOhnson, Bartel, Kelly, Lonergan, Mackie, MCIntosh, Rivers and Stokes - who will take their spots with the same ability?

Shifty - Look at where the blues came from; 2002 -16th 3 wins 2003 - 15th 4 wins 2004 - 11th 10 wins 2005 - 16th 4 wins 2006 - 16th 3 wins 2007 - 15th 4 Wins So in 6 years they had won just 28 games and if you look at the list in 2005 (when they got Murphy at the end of it) they had players like Jordan Bannister, David Clarke, Barnaby French, COry McGrath,Diby Morell, Trent Sporn & David Teague and their better players included Whitnall , Koutafides and Camporeale all of whom were about to retire. In reality the blues did particulalry well to take that list and get in to one in which they were playing finals by 2009. Also the BLues didn't trade out Jacobs and Grigg, they were both out of contract and had been made offeres from other clubs the blues had to take what they could get or lose them for nothing. As for the BLues poor lower recruiting, they got Jamison as a Rokkie in 2006, Armfield at 46 and Ellard as a Rookie in 2007, Garlett as a Rookie in 2008, Casboult, White and Touhy as Rookies in 2009, Duigan at 70 in 2010, Sam Rowe at 44 and Tom Bell as a Rookie in 2011 and Nick Graham at 54 in 2012 - that isn't too bad.

I don't actually think it will be that big a problem when these guys retire the Cats n Hawks have already drafted there replacements.

Steele - It is very true that none of those players would have gone to Melbourne but all happy to go to the Hawks to win a premiership. That is where losing Clarke hurts so much for Melb, they finally got a player to chose them over a team in the premiership window and they get no luck.

Carlton had the picks through the early/ middle part of last decade to form the nucleus of a contending side 2002 Kade Simpson pick 45 2003 Andrew Walker (2) 2005 Marc Murphy (1) 2006 Matthew Kruezer (1) 2008 Chris Yarran (6)) 2008 Mitch Robinson (40) Not to mention Josh Kennedy (4) traded for Chris Judd Sam Jacobs (72) traded out Shaun Grigg (19)traded out Shaun Hampson (17) traded out So as you can see Carlton's problems stem more from poor development and poor lower pick recruiting than the so called compromised drafts.

I agree the blues being locked out of 2 drafts hurt and it is still hurting the club. The fact of the matter is for Carlton their list in 2005 was terrible and by 2010 they had gone from winning just 3 or 4 matches a year to making finals but then they were effectively locked out of the early draft again so just when they needed to top up to push up the stalled, just like every other club in that mid tier. And you criticise the blues recruiting but outside of the compromised drafts where did they really go bust? 2009 yes but only about 5 of the top 15 players in that draft turned out to be half decent and the best player was Fyfe at 20 and even Freo took him with their second pick.

Shifty - A quick look at that post show it is rubbish - it talks about clubs just shifting down a couple of spots because of the new clubs getting some extra high picks but completely ignores the fact that the expansion teams had already taken out a large number of the top draft picks out as 17 year olds before the draft. And article discussing the blues recruiting in the Herald Sun a few weeks ago pointed out that Matthew Watson taken by the blues at I think 18 would more accurately have been pick 35. The article also emphasises that EVERY club was shuffled down - and this is true and is why every club will be effected but the timing is just different - the teams at the bottom need their draft picks to play earlier so are effected earlier - the teams like Geelong and Hawthorn won't show the signs until the likes of Bartel, Johnson and Kelly or Mitchell, Hodge and Lake all leave in quick succession.

A club like Melbourne couldn't do the same because of their business model and decision making. Does everyone forget that Hawthorn and Melbourne nearly merged in 96. One club is still.on the verge of collapse the other one of the powerhouses of the league. It's not what number you get to call out a name, it's what name you call out and then how you develop them. History is littered with top picks who do nothing and lower order picks that become gems. Carltons problems stem from cheating the salary cap, being locked out of the 02/03 drafts, and subsequent poor drafting, recruiting and development. The nucleus of the Hawks, Swans, Collingwood, St Kilda ( until recently and even the Dogs made 2 prelims in a row) and Cats was built in the early part of last decade.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/compromised-draft-theory-busted.1014102/

I actually agree with you on this one Macca, there's too much evidence in your favor to ignore. While Geelong have obviously recruited good kids it is Hawthorn who have recycled a number of good players which has got them premierships. Gunston and Lake were instrumental last year and Dew was huge in 08. Both teams deserve plaudits for what hey have achieved however they are so far ahead of the pack that the mid tier teams couldn't play catch up with the diluted draft picks. Then at the end of the scale there's the bottom teams who have missed out on great picks to the start up clubs. Gibson, lake, Guerra, McEvoy,Gunston,Burgoyne the list goes on. Hawthorn have done very well to get these players but don't even suggests a club like Melbourne is capable of doing the same.

I pick Carlton to beat Footscray this wknd.

What stunned me about the time of Ratten was the club gave him a contract extension when it was clear that the team was not going to advance further than lower parts of the eight. Ratten also was behind recruiting some duds like Setanta. On him, you have a nation of born footballers and they bring in a dud from Ireland who never played the sport. What on earth was the thinking there? The results were completely predictable. Why did the Carlton board allow these stunts to occur is beyond me. Too detached from reality I suggest. Carlton needs to just keep on recruiting the best players it can get and the results will come naturally. All the coaches, facilities and resources are in place. Now with all the concessions to Gold Coast and West Sydney over, we can get on with a levelish playing field.

True Stavros Cartlon could of had both of those players but did Carlton really need to be recruiting outside runners in 2010? And this is more than just whether the blues missed a player or 2 in the drafts - every mid tier club has treaded water since then - either we have all of Richmond, Essendon, North, Adelaide, Port, Brisbane, West Coast & Carlton all making massive mistakes while Geelong and Hawthorn keep picking winners or the teams that had less work to do on there list when the drafts were compromised have benefited to this point. Geelong and Hawthorn will both suffer from the compromised drafts - just later than the less developed sides.