Hayes leads Saints to upset win over Dockers

We have to be real specific here I said in 2 years these blokes will "be at the back end of their careers" But look at it logically 2016 Dawson, Mzungu, Pearce both 30, Mundy 31, Johnson & Crowley 32, Ballantyne 29 and Barlow 29 doesn't seem young to me and they'd be lucky if 1. They're all there in 2016 and 2. Still playing good consistent footy... obviously some will still be playing well, but certainly not all of them My main point is that if Freo don't win a flag in 2014 or 2015 I really feel as if they've missed their chance and they will slide down the ladder but their list is strong enough and they won't have to bottom out.

I can't reply to your last post (but that is what I am responding to). When you say what we will lose in the next few years will be tough to bring back in, the issue I take with your argument is the second list of players you mention (and I don't think these players will be at the end of their careers in 2 years). All of these players are lateral recruits since 2010, 2 of which were rookies. So Freo will do what it has always done and bring in lateral recruits/rookies/older speculative picks - such as Ballas, Sandi, Duffield and Spurr - knowing that our core players in the 22-24 year range have potentially long careers ahead of them. Freo's problem is actually that they traded a lot of draft picks who would now be 25 -30 for established players. It has had to cover this age gap through lateral hires for a few years now.

Rather meet them at the G than at pattersons.

Well should Geelong or Hawthorn finish higher than Freo or meet them in the granny, best of luck to them beating them at the MCG

The only worry Freo should have from the game is the big hit it did to their top 2 chances. Yes they may still get a top 2 finish, but it is no longer a near certainty and they may need some results to go in their favor. If Freo misses hosting two home finals because of this loss it will be a big blow.

Edit 3rd paragraph** So my point is what they're going to lose in the next few years is going to be tough to bring back in, particularly in a short period of time. So their losses will be much greater than their gains... Therefore i’m predicting that 2015 is their final year to be contesting for a flag… Correct me if I’m wrong by saying that

I forgot to add. OK no goal kicking problem.. Freo vs the current top 8 how many times have they kicked 100pts or more against a top 8 side. Let alone how many top 8 sides have they beaten They beat Pies scored 116pts Round1 Got pumped by Hawks scored 79pts Beat Essendon 113 points scored Lost to Swans 75 points scored Lost to NM scored 61points Lost to Port scored 76 points Beat the Cats 96pts So they've lost to 3 of the top 4 sides and and 4 of the top 8 and again I reiterate when they played against the top 4 sides in Hawthorn Sydney and Port (when they were) they couldn't kick convincing scores Therefore my point being against the top sides they won't be able to match them on the scoreboard. So if you can't kick winning scores, Finals games are tough to win

When I wrote about the next "Bunch of players" i was referring in age not footy skill. Hence I listed players between 27-28, so my point is once the older ones retire in Sandy and Pav Johnson, McPhalin etc. In two years these other blokes (Dawson, Mzungu, Pearce, Barlow) will be the seniors at the back ends of their careers.. So my point is what your gonna lose in the next few years you won in a real short period of time meaning they may slide down the ladder And i'm predicting that 2015 is their final year to be contesting for a flag... Correct me if I'm wrong by saying that

Well said

My point is you can't replace all that when they go especially over night so. And I said its there "CORE GROUP" of players which I mentioned above the Pav, Sandy, Mundy etc but in 2-3 years they won't be able to replace all of them a get in young kids playing as consistently as they are so I can see the premiership window slowly closing and I think if a flag isn't won by 2015 its back to rebuilding. Also with key forwards rare Pavlich is approaching 33 and Gumby is no saviour, Tarberner has not shown a lot. And good sides really need at least 2 forwards in september, look at Hawthorn when they has buddy, roughy and on their day they could kick winning scores and be unstoppable. Freo unfortunately on rely on the Pav. And the young players you named... Fyfe obviously superstar Neale good, Sutcliffe alright, Tanner Smith hasn't shown a lot even at WAFL level, Crozier has potential, Hill has always been off elite never and might get there, De Boer is average, Apeness still early days but been alright, Zac Clarke alright and Brady Grey who knows at this stage But you have to face it. 2 years Pav, Sandy, McPharlin, Crowley, Johnson all gone thats a lot to replace in a very short period of time... especially when you got another half dozen done 2 years after that.

Luke, St K played very well and Freo was woeful. But one thing this game did NOT show is that Freo rely mainly on Pav. In fact it showed the opposite. He's not our highest goal scorer this year and stats show that Ballas not Pav has been the "go to" man for most of the year (he's played deepest forward too, which is a sign in itself) Freo can't play with a tall forward line because it relies so much on defensive pressure in its forward half. Ideally, that comes from Walters and Ballas but Balls has been brilliant this year in being a one-man defensive wall. He was an idiot to get suspended against GWS because the same thing happened against North when he was out. We stopped scoring goals - the inside 50s for the first 3 quarters were actually pretty similar but Freo couldn't convert. And Freo's drivers are not in the age range you've mentioned - except probably Mundy and Duffield - and 29 is by no means too old. I would have thought that the loss of Walters, Hill and Ballas, and Fyfe being well held, shows that it's actually the young ones that are most crucial. In looking at the next nuch of players you seem to have left out Fyfe, Hill, Wlaters, Clarke, Suban. All crucial players and not in the age range you mention. Your last point is therefore wrong as well.

Luke, there's nothing wrong with Freo's age. You seem to be writing off ages when players are at their peak at 25-29yo. When, in the next 3 to 4 years, they are ready to turn over, there are some 18-22 yo gems who will be at their peak. That "they will be old soon" idea is only ever a footy pundit's idea. It is never a reality. The same myth as a "premiership window". Those ideas parrot vacuous commentators' ideas. Players like Fyfe, Neale, Sutcliffe, Sheridan, Crozier, Hill, De Boer, Apeness, Tanner Smith, Zac Clarke, Brady Grey...and new draftees will be nicely in place. Freo lost one game, for goodness sake. Return Ballantyne, Walters and Hill to the team and there is no goal scoring problem. It is simply a one game aberration. Freo beat GWS by 78 points. Geelong did it by 7points only one week later and they are second on the table. Worried? A result is not a trend...it is only a result.

Although that loss was terrible and has put Freo back in the pack, I most definitely would not count them out of top two at this stage. As said above this loss will wipe away any cockiness and have them completely set on giving 100% every week. If Sydney beat the Hawks next week then it's highly likely Freo will be second again after round 19.

Being a Saints supporter I was amazed at the effort they put up. And it was great to see the young kids stepping up ie. Stanley, Dunstan, Billings, Newnes etc this really shows that once they can get a couple more pre-seasons into the kids they're going to be a competitive club in a couple years time. I want to make a few points about Fremantle and where they are at. Firstly the forward line is purely relying on Pavlich to kick 4-5 each week and I suppose with Ballantyne and Walters out its makes kicking winning scores pretty tough and with Taberner and Gumby not good enough theirs a lot of pressure on the Pav so clearly their screaming for another key target up forward. The other thing is I strongly believe that Freo's premiership window is closing fast a lot of their key players are approaching the end of their careers ie. Pavlich turning 33, Sandy 32, Mundy 29, Crowley 30, McPharlin 32, Johnson 30, Duffield 29 These players make up a lot of their core group and in 2 years you'd suspect hardly any of those will be left, let alone still playing elite footy. The other concern is that even the next bunch of players in squad made up of Barlow 27, Ballntyne 27, Dawson 28, Spurr 27, Mayne 26, Mzungu 28 and Pearce 28, they have a really ageing list and if they don't win a flag next year I feel as if Ross Lyon is taking Freo back to where he originally left the Saints.

Agree Axle. The Swans had the exact same attitude during the first month. We're a top four side, so we only need to show up and we'll win. The opposition always wakes up to this, and steps up a level. It's no coincidence St Kilda played their best game of the season today. Fremantle just got complacent. If you're going to play a very specific style of footy, you've got to absolutely nail it. Defensively, Freo almost always nail it. Today they didn't and it showed. This makes the top four situation more interesting. I only had Fremantle as a premiership contender because I thought their easy run home would result in a cushy cruise into the grand final. If the top two is out of reach, which it very well could be, I wouldn't give them a chance. It's also interesting that Geelong are above Hawthorn and Fremantle when they probably haven't looked like a top two side at all. What an absolute glorious mess of a season. The Sydney and Hawthorn game will clear things up (a tad). Reiwoldt was fantastic today. A brilliant performance. He defeated every opponent, and it's not like it was on a reserves defender. I'm talking McPharlin, Johnson etc. It was a performance up there with Ablett vs. Collingwood last year, Buddy vs North in 2012, and many of Careys great games. What made it remarkable is that there was no greater occasion for a leader to step up, and to excel above his usual standard was incredible. Congratulations to Hayes on a wonderful career. One of the fairest and most under-rated champions of today.

Fremantle looked as tho they thought it was just going to happen for them,it could hurt them on the ladder but this loss will stop the swelled heads and bring them back to earth,which will be good for them with the finals not to far away.