As long term fan of Australian football – and follower of football in general for even longer than that – I’ve noticed something about our support for the world game.
It’s a thing that’s surrounded the entire code in this country for the entire time the game has been here. And it has lasted well and truly longer than its used-by date – an inferiority complex.
It has been spurred by the decades of failures in making World Cup tournaments, the inadequacy of local competitions during that time, the inadequacy of the old confederation (Oceania) and the game being poorly administered.
And then the inevitable collapse of the NSL and the doubts surrounding the foundation of they A-League.
This doubt is what makes Australians a little more unsure of their support of the national team. It makes people view the A-League as an inferior to everything else league – despite its rise and rise – and worst of all it makes Australians doubt their compatriots who play the game.
It’s an inferiority complex based on history rather than logic.
We’ve constantly heard (from two cent web professionals) that the A-League is the worst competition around, that the quality is so inferior to everything in the world, that Ange Postecoglou is not up to it and that only Tim Cahill is good enough to score goals for the Socceroos.
But the stark reality (driven now by the Socceroos conquering Asia) is that these kind of doubts are wholly and completely unwarranted.
I am a seasoned fan of Australian football and in my eyes – as in most dedicated football supporters’ eyes – we see it differently. We have faith in the process and although we know anything and everything can be done better, we know that the development of Australian players from youth to professional is indeed adequate.
We watched as Ange Postecoglou revolutionised and reshaped the entire A-League from top to bottom and we know that Australia’s domestic league is a more than adequate standard for our players new and old.
A-League clubs hold the upmost professionalism in largely every facet of the game. The difference between A-League clubs and the rest of the world is one thing – money.
But money doesn’t mean you can’t hold professional standards and money doesn’t stop our systems of development from holding high standards. Money does lots of things but money cannot buy these qualities.
There’s a point where our mainstream will need to give up all qualms concerning Australian football and just accept the fact that at the end of the day, Australia is pretty good at the round ball game.
Having a AFC Champions League trophy and a Continental Cup within the space of 12 months speaks for itself.
Certainly I don’t see England making any revolutionary inroads or any real exerted effort to such dominance of their continent. If we’re going to compare ourselves to England, it’s that kind of comparison we should be making rather than one based solely on money.
Teto
Guest
When we mention money that is true money makes the world move but is not everything, to become a success in any sport not just soccer you have to be like a family start planting the professional, respect, dreams, hard work etc. by opening soccer academies from a young age so kids learn to be around different cultures, introduce the beauty and creativity of the latin soccer, the endurance of the european soccer and the strengh of the africans and the speed of asian soccer without forgetting our australian kids and of course you have to invest more money by being stingy and selfish you wont get anywhere.
Luke Gaskett
Roar Rookie
Considering I wrote that opinion before Atheti went and smashed Madrid I think I deserve a little leeway... Lol, nah you're missing and simultaneously making my point at the same time, which is to say I'm not here to argue who's best. As I've pointed out and as you've proven with your wonderful timing in football there is no single aspect to the game which can't be called definitively 'the best' there is in the game. Athleti beat Madrid by being physical therefore you could argue that in that single crucial aspect of the game they are the worlds best team. We should all watch only them.
Luke Gaskett
Roar Rookie
Look you either miss or are not paying complete attention to the points I've made so I'll spell it out for you. England is not good at developing English players, they are not as good at that as Germany, Italy, Brazil, France, Argentina and Spain just to note a few. That makes English football and it's league inferior in that aspect. How do I know this? Germany, Spain, Italy. Last three World Cup winners. Argentina, Holland, France. Last three World Cup runners up. Spain, Spain, Greece. Last three Euro Champions. Italy, Germany, Portugal Last three Euro runners up. Last ten Champions League. Spain 4 England 3 Italy 2 Germany 1 See English teams = good English Player = not good. So what does that suggest about EPL? Well it's main concern is to buy up the best Belgium, Neatherlands, French, German, Italian, Australian, South Korean, Japanese, American talent. Meaning it's not very good at developing it's own players something that has been identified as a massive flaw for England and English footballers. Is it the best at winning Champions League? No, Spain is. "2. Many countries don’t have access to Pay-Tv or free-to-air coverage of the EPL, La liga etc… Therefore they know no better. Once you have tasted the best, it’s hard to go back my friend. However, if you know no better; then you will never know what you are missing out on." This is simply not true my friend, most nations on the planet now have EPL, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga etc etc etc Does that stop the people of Holland, Croatia, Chile, Costa Rica, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Japan, Korea, Russia, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden, Scotland etc etc from getting behind their local leagues? Not in the slightest. In Australia many people who started with European football are now supporting A-League clubs. I supported Liverpool, before MVFC was even conceived of, from the treble in 01. Did you watch the Melbourne/Sydney game? Well obviously unlikely... The game was a classic (second between the two rivals this season) two of the Melbourne goals were first class as good as any goals you can see in Europe, our defense is admittedly 'second rate' but our attack is something to behold. You also get the wrong idea about what I 'prefer' to watch, that doesn't mean I don't like the football on display during a Madrid or Barca or City or any EPL/La Liga game in that aspect I prefer watching those leagues so what point am I making about La Liga and to some extent EPL? When I generally know who's going to win before the game even starts makes the game I'm watching feel hollow. Overall I just find your reasoning to be flawed, I don't blame you for watching the best, I simply think what you personally judge as best and the manner in which you do that is rather shallow. You put EPL and England on too much of a pedestal as I've pointed out in many ways England is flawed, not in an entirely bad way and certainly not for... Well lets face it in that aspect you and I are more neutrals than true partisans (as in an Englishman might understand the frustration of what I'm pointing out more than you). I'm hardly what you could refer to as an 'elitest' I quite simply just love football more than any other sport and I'm watching it every single moment, I'm watching La Liga (Madrid) right as I'm writing this. As for your MLB/NFL/NBA/AFL/NRL arguments, they're all moot points, you can't compare such things to football such is the sheer enormity of football, there truly is NO SUCH THING AS BEST there is only best at any given time THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES, NO CERTAINTIES. Currently Australia is unquestionably the 'best' football nation in Asia... Currently, that doesn't mean in a years/decades/centuries time we're going to still be the best. It's the same world over and it has been throughout the history of football. Europe hasn't historically dominated world football that title is arguably shared (and some will even say belongs) with South America. All those American/Australian sports leagues are unquestionably the best at their given sport and have always been the best and will likely always be the best. Football quite simply is not, has never been and never will be anywhere near that definable, quantifiable and unquestionable. Did you see my argument about Madrid? It got shot down, it can be questioned, it is not definitive, it's certainly only temporary. People once upon a time said we'd never be competitive against Asian opposition... It's all a fallacy. As I exemplified with Argentina and for that matter Brazil and what's happening in Asia, the possibility of improvement, the possibility to rise up is entirely possible regardless of money. Is Australia winning a World Cup possible? My answer... Absolutely, it only takes the development of 40 maybe 50 really good players, you don't even need the worlds best player! How far away is that? Closer than we were before. Lastly and finally to exemplify why I think you really don't have any clue about football... "1. England invented football at the height of their powers and therefore was able to proliferate the game world wide due to it’s vast Empire." No.
Steve
Guest
You do not watch Spanish football....that must be the explanation. Atletico Madrid just thrashed Real 4-0 this morning. The "here and now", Atletico have now beaten Real twice and drawn once since the start of 2015! Real are certainly now NOT the team to beat. Real have "here and now" not beaten Ateltico in the Liga for the past two seasons. Last year Atletico lost the UCL Final with Real equalising in the last minute of stoppage time, and then Real ran away with it in ET - probably because Atletico players had to play a do or die match to secure the Liga at the Camp Nou a week earlier while Real's best were rested knowing they could not win La Liga. Real won the WCC by beating who exactly? Nobodies. You may still dislike Spanish football and La Liga, but the reality is your posts have shown you have very little knowledge of it at all (you probably think an A-League side could beat Sevilla, Valencia or Villareal lol). Teams to have beaten Barcelona/Real this season include Valencia, Real Sociedad (beat both) and Celta Vigo. These anti-Eurosnobs are only proving they know exactly zilch about European football.
Doc Disnick
Roar Guru
Bondy I haven't lived in Adelaide for nearly 15 years now and graduated from high school way back in 1993. Things would have changed significantly since then. What I can tell you is Rugby during my time as a student was next to nothing, even less than football. In most private schools Aussie rules was the dominant code, just like it is in all schools. It is considered a class-less game, just like cricket and football are. Therefore you don't really have this sporting divide of classes like we see between Rugby and League in Sydney. People from SA, Vic and WA really will never understand it unless you live and experience it. That's why I find Joey's such an interesting place. I doubt very much things have changed in SA schools when it comes to rugby. But from the data available, football has grown massively in both private and public schools in SA. You can not deny this and to what extent this continues to grow is any ones guess. I see it like this. SA, Vic , WA will most likely stay AFL 1, with football a close second. NSW and QLD I could easily see League getting knocked off by football in 20-30 years time as the number 1 sport. I can't say this about AFL, despite all their resources.
Bondy
Guest
Rick Just wondering if you new what relevance does Rugby Union have in schools in Sth Aus private or public now or previously ? .Cheers...
Doc Disnick
Roar Guru
I never said this Uncle. AFL has not made significant inroads into NSW schools at all. I simple said they are aggressively pushing into more of the private schools, an area League has been unable to gain any traction in. I also said football is making far greater inroads than the AFL, particularly at Joey's where it is quite big now, all be it not to the same extent as Rugby. Why else would I mentioned Riverviews AFL-scholarhsip program? Kind of a weird and odd thing to bring up out of know where. I actually had never heard of it and only knew of it after striking up a conversation with Riverview's Rugby team physio on match day against the two rival schools. As mentioned, I'm an SA boy and know nothing about NSW or Vic schools, so I find it fascinating the dynamics between some of the schools. I was more curious this morning than anything to see if Joey's had produced any AFL or Socceroo players, since I was unaware of any at the time. But as you pointed out, I was idiotic for not reading it correctly. But, it again does not change what I am trying to say. Perhaps this will help: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/elite-schools-become-breeding-grounds-for-afl-talent/story-fnca0u4y-1227049499315 I mentioned this in my original post and believe it is one of the reasons Rugby is going backwards in this country.
Uncle Junior
Guest
Fair enough, we all make mistakes. But it makes a mockery of your grandiose self-assessment: "The only difference is, I can back my opinions up with some evidence and statistics." Luckily I read the link you provided and have close knowledge of St Joseph's College, Geelong to know you were talking nonsense to use those Geelong players as the foundation for how AFL is having huge success in schools in NSW!
Doc Disnick
Roar Guru
No I did a quick search to answer Ben's question about the other codes as well. I don't work 'at Joeys', I do consulting work for them, mainly their senior Rugby team. I'm not a teacher. I stand corrected on the AFL, which is why I mentioned their rivals in Riverview who have a scholarship program. To be honest I was a bit surprised when I saw it and should have read it closer. Rugby is the main sport, and as mentioned Football has grown massively in the past 10 years. I see quite a few of their football players also for injury management, but they don't quite have the same resources as their senior Rugby team does. I wouldn't be surprised if we see quite a few more Socceroos coming out of this school, just like with the Wallabies. The AFL is also trying to push into these markets, but as mentioned in a previous thread, I don't think they will have the same penetration as football will, which is it's huge advantage.
Uncle Junior
Guest
Rick Disnick, that article you linked refers to St Joseph's College in Geelong, which is a staunchly traditional AFL school - it has never been a school where Rugby is King!! It's hardly surprising that major Catholic College in Geelong has produced a huge number of Geelong AFL players. St Joseph's is part of the CBC group of schools and I don't know of any CBC schools in Victoria where "Rugby is still king -and probably always will be." Our school played sport against St Joseph's in the Catholic Colleges competition. As an Old Boy of the College I get biannual newsletters that provide summary of all the sporting results for the School. There is never any mention of any Rugby competition amongst the CBC schools. You say you do work at St Joseph's in NSW, yet you didn't realise that article you linked has zero relevance to the school you work at? Or did you think Ling, Scarlett, Bartels all went to your school St Joseph's in NSW? How can you make such a basic error? Surely you can't be confused about where you work?
Doc Disnick
Roar Guru
No Problem Ben, I've enjoyed the conversation. Before I finish up on this thread, I would like to make it clear - my comments were based upon someone else opinion who wrote this article 6-years ago. I just happen to agree with it partially. Where I don't agree is the 'second rate' part of his comments. After all, Football has the 'highest' participation rate of ANY sport by juniors and seniors, so at the end of the day, it's a bit rich for him to call it a second rate sport, which clearly it is not here in Australia. In reference to Joey's: It is an extremely well rounded school and loves it's sports. Rugby is still king -and probably always will be - but football has grown massively here over the past 10 years. AFL has a limited presence, but does exist. In fact Riverview (Joeys rivals in Rugby) were the first GPS school to offer full AFL scholarships - at the AFL's expense of course. They did this with five other schools in the Sydney metro region and is one part of their initiative to grow the game in these markets. League has next to no presence and could never do what either of these two sports have done. I have met many fathers of these students and believe me, they wouldn't let them play such a peasants game. Now that's not my opinion of league of course, but this is the reason it can't penetrate these areas, yet football and AFL can - they are classless. Look at this link: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/joeys-boys-lead-the-way/story-fn7shz1t-1226144894944 Not bad hey for a non-traditional AFL college. That's some serious talent coming out of this school. Also look at how many great Cats players have come out of it - truly amazing.
Ben
Guest
Thanks for being so forthright Rick. I am not sure I agree with your contention that I was wrong on most counts - most of what I wrote was simply a regurgitation of your own statements from your previous post and the information above just put meat on them bones! Regardless, I am happy to agree to disagree regarding your opinion and move on to the interesting revelation of your work at St Joseph's. How is soccer received in what I perceive to be a bastion of rugby union? Is it still treated as a second or even third tier sport (my experience when I attended a GPS school in the 80s and 90s) in the sporting hierarchy or is it moving up the rung? Where does AFL fit in to the picture?
Evan askew
Guest
Thomas broich
Evan askew
Guest
Thank you
Doc Disnick
Roar Guru
Luke "Going by your logic and reasoning of what to watch and what not to watch in regards to what’s first rate and what’s second rate in football everybody in the world should watch only Real Madrid right now!" No, you like some others here either can't read or want to change the argument. I specifically said 'Australians', so don't extrapolate this to the 'world'. Even if you want to have this discussion, go read my comments to Punter above. I answered this quite well and Punters proceeding comments tends to suggest this, which is a rarity between us two :) Go read Midfielders comments - he actually agreed with my comments and we REALLY don't get along. "Quite simply as it stands right here and right now everyone in England, Germany, France, Italy, Argentina anybody in Spain that doesn’t like Madrid… Everybody should be watching Real Madrid." You just don't get it do you? You are trying to take a very specific point in order to make a very general argument. It's just doesn't work like this Luke. I watch the EPL for a number of reasons and one of those is because I feel it is the best. Another is because I lived for a long time in the UK. However, what you and many people don't seem to understand is the EPL is just one part of European Football. I watch La Liga also to a limited extent, because of the Champions League. I take interest in these clubs, because there is a significant cross-over. European Football is one massive organic beast and unless you have experienced it, you just have no idea what I am on about. Even if you wanted to argue this ridiculous (single-point) of Madrid being the best and extrapolate it to your 'world' argument, I can easily counter this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2836244/Premier-League-emerges-best-world-following-Sportsmail-s-depth-study-global-football.html There you go, this study using statically data shows the EPL to be the best as of 2014. I could equally paste many other links suggesting La Liga is the best also. I can argue that indeed the EPL, La Liga or anyone of a number of leagues in Europe are the best. That's the great thing about it. What you can't do is make a compelling argument to any of your fellow Roarers that the A-League is not significantly inferior to any of these European leagues. How do I know this 100 per cent? “Surely it cannot be that inferior, we’ve just shown that we can adequately compete with our own continant and if you were to ask me I would tell you this is start and not the end….” Your own words tell me this. You are unsure yourself and at best, readily admit it is an inferior product - you are just unsure as to how inferior it is... "You know it’s the dumbest thing that people can say about football “I’ve seen the best and now I can’t go back”" Now your getting personal. You have used words such as 'dumbest' & 'tosser' to describe people like me who only 'watch the best'. Like I said, you will never find me berating A-League followers coupled with insults. Poor form indeed. Ironically, you are doing the same thing you hate others doing...yet don't even know it. "You know why I don’t like Spanish football? "Barca and Madrid. They are the two most boring teams to watch in Spain, yeah they’re good quite simply better than everyone else but it’s the other mobs that get the feels, their supporters care a lot more." So basically you don't like them because there supporters don't care enough. You like the feel you get from watching lesser teams so to speak that you have no allegiance to what so ever? How do I know this? "Personally I’d rather watch lower English leagues than EPL at least then it seems to matter a great deal when they do score." You told us. Surely you can't have an allegiance with all these clubs, which means you watch them soley because they provide a 'BETTER' feel for you. Wow, you 'elitist' you! The man that only goes to games that have the best atmosphere. Forget about the football, that is secondary, I must have the best atmosphere and if the fans don't provide it then I'm dumping on them hey?
Doc Disnick
Roar Guru
Okay Ben, lets see how close you are. I have no issue with my personal profile on this site, and a lot of it I have mentioned in threads and also articles I have written on this site. 1. I'm from South Australia and played 89 games for the Port Adelaide Magpies in the SANFL 2. I'm a Geelong fan at heart since I followed the VFL also in the 80's as a kid. Most people even in SA followed the VFL and it relates to this very topic. It was considered the best and funnily enough most states agreed with this analysis by wanting to join it also. The AFL is now living proof of this. I will expand on this further in my comments to the author down below. 3. I studied Physiotherapy in South Australia and a Masters of Biomechanics in Victoria. This allowed me to do extensive work experience at the Geelong Football Club, which further enhanced by love for the club. 4. I met a whole new group of people at University over a 6-year period. Many of these were football lovers and I started to get involved more in this. In 1997 many of my new friends were United fans and this was the team I adopted since I learnt their starting 11. In 1999 I witnessed one of the greatest football matches ever in the Champions League final. 5. Since my profession involves dealing in sports injury management and biomechanics, it's in my interest to understand all sports. As such I took a far greater interest in football due to both of these reasons combined. 6. I applied for a sports biomechanics position at various institutions all over the world. I was offered a position for 6-weeks at Old-Trafford, which as you can imagine I just couldn't turn down. 7. I specifically applied for this position, because it has some of the 'BEST' rehabilitation physiotherapists working for them, some of the best rehabilitation equipment in the world and some of the best training facilities in the world. 8. I lived and worked in the UK & Ireland for nearly 10 years, before moving to Sydney. 9. My wife is indeed English who I met whilst working in London. She is also an Arsenal member along with her entire family. As such I become further involved in the EPL by going to many live games over a 5 year period. 10. I now work in both private practice and do consulting work in the field of biomechanics. I work mainly with young adults between the ages of 15 and 21 in all sports. However, my main work as been in Rugby Union and Football at St Joesph's College in Hunters Hill. I'd say I'm more in-tune with under 25 yo males than you might think. So unfortunately you are wrong on most counts, despite how impressed Uncle found your read. It doesn't change anything though, my comments are still valid and many people here agree with it. The only difference is, I can back my opinions up with some evidence and statistics.
Luke Gaskett
Roar Rookie
Barry. Nope, in all honesty I'm exactly the same except on the otherside of the coin, like anyone I make predictions etc If you asked me before Asian Cup I would have told you I thought we were an outside chance but certainly not favorites. But certainly I know we're on a a path as a footballing nation, we have a national curriculum (Foster likes to remind everyone of it), we have direction. I didn't doubt that we are going places I just didn't think we'd arrive anywhere so soon. Which is the point I'm making, there's so much going on, modernization of facilities, greater coaching opportunities, a more focused path for player development, more money than ever being injected and all this seems to be occurring more and more rapidly. I look at a nations like Argentina and Japan and I think we can reach the same heights and I'm not shy of expressing that thought. Argentina a nation that doesn't have a great deal of global awareness, you know the basics (Boca, River Plate etc, but San Lorenzo?) but in reality most people myself included don't really know a great deal about it other than that they're able to develop some pretty decent footballers. Look at it like this, with less money, less global awareness an inability to compete with Europe financially and all that, Argentina are still able to finish second in the World Cup, Second in the Club World Cup and win their Continental Cup. That's pretty impressive for a nation that should theoretically be inferior to Europe. Japan, has more than we do (Korea too fwiw) they are lavished by European and South American leagues who use Japan to develop coaches, to send young players to develop and invest hundreds of thousands of dollars there doing it. Do you think after the statement we just made there's not going to be more of that here? We just beat them with a financially inferior system that is based around developing young Australians with less. The Gulf Mancs showed up in Melbourne before the Asian Cup and just the other day Everton entered into an agreement with CCM... Foreign investment is on it's way in a big way, that and we're looking to renegotiate the TV deal in a years time in what's expected to cover two to four new teams. I only base my thoughts on what I see as trends, I look more at J. League and MLS as comparisions with A-League and I base a lot of my theories and arguments on what has occurred in those countries over some despairing 'worries me' kind of attitude. It's all happening in Australia quicker and faster and as far as I see it only 1/40th of the country actually knows about it.
Luke Gaskett
Roar Rookie
Yes and it was brilliant however Madrid won CL and Madrid won WCC and Madrid will likely win this seasons installment Atleti winning last season was great but in the here and now Madrid are the team to beat.
Steve
Guest
You know Atletico won the league last year and have gone unbeaten against Real in 5 matches this year, including three victories. But yes, La Liga is just Barca and Real. Stick to the A-League novice.
Lazza
Guest
Are you really watching the ‘best’ though Rick? There are 300m Football players from every corner of the globe and a few hundred thousand Aussie Rules players, 75% of whom come from one State. When Darren Burgess of Port Power was asked who was the best athlete he ever worked with he nominated Luis Suarez not any AFL player? If you’re only interested in watching the World’s best athletes then you won’t find them in a boutique, domestic sport.