Why the NPL needs our attention

No crowds huh. In the FFA cup versing non A-league oppositions this happened about 10 times or more attracted 3k at their local venue. And the 2Nd tier k league challenge attracts an average of 1 thousand and something and also is professional

You are 100% spot on !!! A-League teams should give the teams some solid money as a reward for the players, it will encourage more development at the club/NPL level. It sounds weird, but i went to an NPL match and i could almost smell the history of the clubs on the pitch. FFA should be harnessing that history and exploiting it, instead of making new franchises

Instead of npl finals introduce the npl national in 2groups as a successor to the nsl of the eighties, 2 groups of 24. 3 teams from the states 2 from the territories/nnsw, with north being nsw,act,qld,nt and south being Vic,wa,sa,tas. With the top 3 of each group playing in the finals the rest of the teams play a round Robin finals series in their home state to decide if the teams get relegated. Until p/r is viable the npl would be a autumn season with interseason cup between the a-league 9aussie teams and top 7 npl/n sides, after the npl season but before the a-league in august/september. This interseason cup

Are you suggesting national second league or nsl

Don't think it's too much of a problem in the US at the moment, but they've got a lot more clubs (soon to be 24 within a few years). P/R is an exciting concept, but it's hard to see getting implemented anytime soon. At this rate, I can see a handful of NPL teams becoming professional and then being used to form a B-League. But whether or not there is P/R is difficult to say. Ideally, yes. Realistically, maybe not yet.

This is why transperant is important. Increased revenue should do 2 things (1) be invested in improved quality of coaching, programs, resources etc.... And (2) lower prices and/or subsidise low income families to increase participation. This is why transperant is important, as without it, the gouging and screwed priorities will continue.

Towser I admire the fact you put forward your arguments but you assume the worst features of pro/relegation. For example you put the idea of Sydney FC being relegated. That's a pretty extreme scenario but lets just say for interests sake if happened. What do you think would happen the following year. Do you concede that they are a big club and they just might be the biggest club in A2 and hence get promoted to the A-league in the following year. Dont you agree that if a team from Campbelltown made it to the A-league from A2 as unlikely as it seems, they would struggle to survive in the top flight for a year or two. There would be a situation where clubs in both A1 and A2 would be looking to improve year upon year in order to raise the bar so their futures are secure. The year Sydney FC gets relegated I am sure they would be fighting to come back into the A-league. This year WSW is fighting to stay away from the wooden spoon in the league. As much as I dont like the situation of possibly getting relegated. I am imagining if we did and what would happen. It is possible I might pick up a new team to follow in the A-league, but then again, there is a very good chance that I wouldn't. In fact relegating WSW or SFC into the A2 would possibly be a good thing because it would create some interest in that league. You have to remember that my earlier suggestion was that clubs would need to submit good proposals to be accepted into A2. In the case of Campbelltown they would need to show why they belong to A2, what are their projected crowds, their stadium facilities, their plans for engagement in the community, the development of players, how they intend to structure their ownership ie community, one owner, consortium etc. This would be part of their submission. In other words the standards have to be high, just like they were when the A-league started. Of course the standard wont be as high as the A-league. its a tiered league after all, but I can tell you now those teams in A2 will be gunning for a spot in the A-league because if they don't, whats the point. Now you argue how can CCM compete in a regional small area. I could ask you how could Crystal Palace when it re-entered the EPL a few years ago or how about Eibar. How can a small town of less than 100,000 people be able to compete in La Liga, arguably one of the best leagues in the world. Its because they are community club with low costs and they were innovative enough to raise funds and sponsorship through crowd funding. Bloody clever if you ask me. Dont say it can be done when this little Spanish marvel can prove anything is possible. My point is this. The same arguments were being raised when the A-league first started. This will never work. You just cant start up a league with clubs who have no history and no connection. Well they did and look where we are now. As long as we insist on a high standard in regards to new clubs being proposed then that is what we should do. If Campbelltown or any other city or regional town or major city want to put their hat in the ring, then I suggest you put in a damn good submission, because if its not up to scratch. I wouldn't admit you, then I would give my reasons for not admitting you and then what you need to do to get there. This was the scenario facing Eibar and they were given a specific timeframe to meet the criteria of La Liga which they are currently on track to complete. I believe they were given a timeframe for a stadium upgrade as well. Judging by how well they have done this year I believe they will more than likely look into it. They know the consequences if they dont, the choice is theirs. In terms of funding I would say that in the next TV deal say its 100m a year then the A-league clubs should be allowed to get 60% of that money. Thats 60 million dollars, 12 teams that would be anywhere for a grant of 3-4 million a season, 36-48m as a grant in total for the A-league. In A2 this would be 40% or 40Million which would equate to about 2-3 million per A2 team. You have to all remember that even currently while we get 40M a season, each team gets 2.6m a season which equates to approx 26m or 65% of the tv deal 100 m deal (projected) A league = 12 teams 60m (100m x 60%) Grant = 65% x 60 = 39 M Individual team grant = 39/12 = 3.25M A2 league A league = 10 teams 40m (100m x 40%) Grant = 65% x 40 = 26 M Individual team grant = 26/10 = 2.6M

hellas v juventus did ok as well

They attracted a decent crowd at the recent FFA Cup encounter between Sydney United vs Sydney FC so if there were to be a match at Marconi Stadium between the Victory and the Stallions I can almost guarantee you would see more than 2000 people turn up -I for one - as a neutral would go and see that one and I live miles away. The FFA Cup is what is needed to broaden the appeal. I probably would enjoy a kebab and a beer too just quietly!

We need to think about television money before promotion and relegation. Given the financial disparity between the average NPL club and Sydney FC or even CCM I can't see an NPL club surviving more than one season in the top flight at this point in time, let alone doing a Southampton. The fact that the NSW Cup is on Fox Sports and the QLD Cup, VFL, WAFL and SANFL will be on free-to-air this year means the NPL quite simply needs more exposure for sponsorship opportunities.

I can recall South Melbourne coached by the legendary Ferenc Puskas winning a title and the massive support they had then and of course Marconi and Sydney United. The creation of the HAL to broaden the appeal of football amongst the sport loving public has been a good move although some may argue that the game went three steps backwards to go five steps forward. But that all important 2nd Tier (the NPL) needs attention and the FFA Cup is only the start of the work required. For the teams still based on ethnic ties, I can see this being diluted as the fan base becomes more local community based and focused. Whilst crowds may be poor now, this will start to change as the game develops.

RBB I'll state what I said in my other reply above,which illustrates my view. If you have a differing view, considering my view flawed fair enough and leave it there as a two way conversation with differing points of view is a brick wall,going round in circles job. It's the sort of conversation that needs a lot more input than 2 people as it is in terms of the future of the A-League IMO the most important one. Unfortunately most people on here at least, say yes or no to P/R without wishing to debate it through,so although we dont agree at least you are giving the pro's and cons deep thought as am I ,we all wish the best for the A-League. Guess the bottom line is that TV Executives will determine what occurs in the end.

"They would also be eligible for an A-league grant which every other club in the A-league would be getting. In other words they would be able to pay their players similarly to other A-league club. Wouldn’t you assume with that in mind that they could have a decent squad. " What happens when they go down again RBB. In the old days of the 4 divisions pre EPL there was a period of time when there was a sort of salary cap(Called the Maximum Wage) until 1961,then it became a free for all. Under that Maximum wage system clubs because of population ,therefore attendance and market size(No TV Money little sponsorship etc) , became either big,middling or small clubs,because the big city clubs could pay more even under this pseudo salary cap due to gate takings. Once it was scrapped nothing changed, the pecking order of clubs remained the same. Then came the EPL,bigger TV money and clubs entering or leaving the EPL were given substantial payments as you are indicating. However once you went down the Championship TV earnings were a pittance in comparison,therefore the Parachute payment(I believe it's called) was never enough to compete with the already big clubs from the former first division and now the EPL. Hence A dog chasing it's tail and I know this all too well being a Wednesday fan,having been in the EPL and the club nearly going into receivership a couple of years ago. So lets take Campbelltown ,by market size it's a Suburban club,gate takings whatever division it's in a pittance compared with say also what sponsor will bother with such a club. Even Wednesday with nearly 150 years of history from a city of 500,000 is sponsored by Pukka Pies, I doubt whether the local pie shop will bother with Campbelltown. So we give it the same dough when it goes up to A1 as the rest keeping a salary cap for the moment. It survives the first season( as many smaller clubs like Wigan did in the EPL) on crowds of 2000. First flaw in this system,the TV company ,the benefactor forking out the dough to keep A1 & A2 afloat. Next season up goes another small suburban club with an average of 2000. The benefactor's executives are looking at the 2000 crowds played in stadiums 10 times the size and thinking pay more for this at the next TV deal,no way. Now lets say Sydney FC go down. At the time they'd been averaging 19,000 with an ADP marquee. Football fans in Australia are compared with the rusted on English fans ,fickle at best,crowds being optimistic drop to 10,000 that's 9000 lost at the gate with no other means of getting it back as the second division clubs like the Championship in England receive a pittance from TV rights. All the dough goes to the club(s) going up. Suddenly Sydney FC is put in the same position as Wednesday a dog chasing it"s tail. Say Campbelltown goes down the season after next,even worse on potentially 1000 crowdsa potential bankrupt in the making in a league way too high for the market it represents. The only way P/R will stand a remote chance of succeeding in this country is for all 22 clubs say in a A1 & A@ to be given access to the same revenue from TV acrosds the two divisions. Even then I doubt whether the TV ratings or the look on TV regarding poor crowds will be enough to keep the likes of FOX interested and certainly not any FTA channel. That's why I suggested a fixed 12 ,preferably 16 team league from the big city and regional centres,with a fixed salary cap per club and each club having access to a marquee honeypot of say 3 million, to be used for the 5 imports in whichever way they see fit. That way crowds will be decent at all venues and TV excecutives will be happy to keep supporting the League. If others have a differing view considering my view flawed fair enough,but I"m firmly convinced in my mind of what the future of football will be with the likes of Campbelltown in the A-League.

Is it an issue with MLS in the US ? With their ownership model, can't see too many investors being keen on having their investment poured down the hole with relegation !

So based on your English experience - this being the EPL. You are suggesting that the standards are being eroded with the promotion of clubs from the Championship. You are correct clubs will find their level, whether that means Mariners are development club operating on a shoe string and selling players or whether they might be in A2. They too will find their level. If they find their way in A2 what does that mean. Does it mean that they have been replaced with an inferior lower quality team. I hardly think so. In your case you have mentioned that the City Football group invest in Melbourne. If CMM want to compete they might need to raise capital ie perhaps a crowd funding like Eibar did in Spain or perhaps they might raise funds through community ownership or perhaps they might find a rich benefactor from the Abu Dhabi just like the city group, whatever the scenario, it would cause a situation of clubs deserving where they deserve to be. In my earlier post clubs would be asked to spend within their football operating means. So its still a salary cap of sorts but it allows for a bit more flexibility. it encourages clubs to grow their revenues and look to expand their operations and spend within their means. Just because City is bank rolled by Abu Dhabi doesn't mean they would spend recklessly on players etc. I am looking more at the German model rather than the EPL one.

RBB Don't know whether I can be any clearer, but I'll try again, P/R doesn't work the way you are indicating. That is it drags the whole of football up. What happens & I base this on actual English experience and not On what I think will happen, is that under P/R clubs find their own level according to population & potential football market size. Even at the moment you can't make the Mariners any bigger than what they are because of their small market size. This will be even more marked when even smaller clubs come in with P/R. The City Football group invest in Melbourne, not CCM, there's a reason for that just as billionaires don't invest in Bolton. Like attracts like that's why the Mariners have Charlesworth a pauper by CFG standards. Can't make it any clearer than that so we'll have to agree to disagree. L

"Can we in the future envisage Liverpool playing Campbelltown City at Adelaide oval one day or Brisbane CIty at Suncorp? This is where,as I mentioned below, that I see a bridge too far for the NPL clubs in standard of play and most importantly population base to draw on." Your argument is again flawed Towser. Why cant Campbelltown city play at Adelaide oval and why cant Brisbane City play Liverpool at Suncorp. You are assuming that Campbelltown will carry over the same squad that they had in A2, not realising that clubs moving up from A2 to A1 would instantly be able to attract a better standard of player. They would also be eligible for an A-league grant which every other club in the A-league would be getting. In other words they would be able to pay their players similarly to other A-league club. Wouldn't you assume with that in mind that they could have a decent squad. We also know that Liverpool is a huge draw in Australia, they could easily draw a huge crowd of 50-60k. i cant see your argument because I cant see how Campbelltown or even Brisbane would have a lower standard of player if they are getting the same revenue as every other A-league club to buy players for the A-league season.

Well the contradiction is that you feel it will dilute the standards. What makes you think the standard is being diluted. Maybe in the first few years of pro/relegation but if anything it will lift the standards because everyone will be so desperate to remain in the top flight and hence everyone will be pushing themselves and the league forward. The pro/relegation argument is to enhance the leagues bests and not dilute it. To weed out those clubs which are being run inefficiently and to reward those clubs which are being run well in A2. If they are no good then they will soon be found out. So I don't understand your dilution of standards, it is being tested every year and the bar raised every year. Without pro relegation teams will tend to stay in their comfort zone, not willing to expand, not willing to invest. But add pro/relegation and that changes the whole dynamic. Your argument of dilution is a bit flawed because all the best players would naturally be lured to the top flight regardless. At the end of the day it is money more than anything that will determine how successfully we will implement A2. If the money is there then it makes things easier. As I alluded to before it would be in the best interests of the FFA to set out the criteria they want for teams to be accepted into A2. The standards need to be high. As high as when the A-league first started. I cant see why that cant be achievable. A product that would be worthy of also being shown on tv and one that A2 clubs will need to diligently be prepared for. I would be interested to see how many submissions they receive. Again these teams entering the A2 will need to pay a licence fee as well but the fee would be less than the A-league licence. This is just natural. For those teams who get demoted they would pay the A2 licence fee while those being promoted would pay an A league licence fee. This is what A1 or A2 would look like to me: 1. No Salary caps in either A1 or A2 (spending on players determined by a % of operating revenues) 2. Transfer fees between all clubs (free open market) 3. No salary cap floor but a minimum player salary as per CBA agreement (if this spending is still above that % in point 1 then you wont be in A1 or A2, In other words you would have very low operating revenues if you cant meet minimum standards). 4. All A-league clubs to have academies (something not yet enforced) 5. One team to be automatically relegated and the second team to be in a play off with the team who finished second in A2 (provided we have a 14-16 team A-league competition). Change the dynamic and watch things happen. We currently have a closed system where there is not real push to get better and this includes those in the lower tiers of Australian football. Open it up and you just might get more people involved and more money. There is a pathway for your club to get to the top of the A-league tree, just like it should be.

Apologies..the 'pro' reference was intended to allude to the funding of clubs/teams. ie. how the clubs fund their Senior squads. I think clubs are too dependent on junior fees. Few of the Qld NPL clubs have decent revenue streams and is seems to me that junior football is carrying a significant portion of the costs associated with maintaining a senior NPL semi-pro side....seriously, how can a $2000 fee be justified for U12s?

I don't Uncle Junior. All I know is there are a lot of unhappy supporters who feel as if they have been dudded. I live 2 hours north of Brisbane and my son lives in Brisbane. The feed back is via him. It is not as if some supporters missed out on tickets because of demand and the size of the stadium, but rather both ROAR members and the Football Family who actively support the game on a regular basis and were promised preferential treatment before tickets were offered to the public. When Ticketec offered the tickets on line they omitted to ask for any ID. This is a guess, no idea, but it stands to reason supporters from both NSW and VIC would fly into Brisbane to watch the game because it is on a Friday, instead of going to Adelaide for the Monday game. I dont know. All I know is it was open slather the moment people realised they only had to enter the password.