Phoenix chairman confident of club's A-League future

Ahhh yeah, a massive cultural difference between the two. Well, really Auckland and the rest of the country.

The AFC doesn't want another country to join them. It was hard enough for Australia to get in, do you not remember?

a good point well made sir ....

Wollongong will riot if you try and give them a team called anything other than the Wolves.

Nix v Adelaide, winner goes top, attendance? 7,800 !!!!!! I rest my case - there is no appetite for football in New Zealand, therefore there is no TV money so Nix only survive because Australian money flows across to keep them in business. There is no arguements for keeping Phoenix going in Wellington - move them to Canberra, or Geelong or Woolongong and have done with it.

Waz All correct issues and if the AFC say out then thats it ... however a NZ team has been part of Australian Football for a very long time... The real question about NZ centres around is Auckland ready ... a much bigger city and closer to key NZ media heads... TBH I think the Nix's playing out of the Hutt Reserve have shown the way forward a small stadium with a say 10 to 12 capacity will be almost full every match ... the issue is Wellington has no other alternative than the ROI a 34K oval out of date stadium that even a champion winning rugby teams struggle to average over 10 K... However we do need a 12 team competition to go to the media with and why as I said get rid of a team not needing to be funded by FFA.

Agreed. And I don't think its a coincidence the Aus TV rights are being discussed behind closed doors at the moment - I believe the current TV agreement can be terminated early (end of next season) which coincides with the Phoenix licence renewal. Not that there's anything necessarily sinister in that - my guess is Fox/FTA want a 12 team competition over 33 weeks so maybe Nixs lifeline could be the risk that the FFA can get two new clubs up and running AND replace the Nixs. Now that's an argument for keeping the Nixs (at least for 5 years)

Not according to Fox sports - look at the super rugby negotiations for a reference point "play more games against kiwi and SA sides, then naah, we'll pay the same but play more Aussie v Aussie games and then we"ll pay more". Just come out and say it why don't you - no matter what it costs you think it's worth paying to keep a kiwi side in, I disagree, that's ok

Oh I agree that Australian clubs provide a better TV rights return (provide they can remain afloat and don't require FFA largess, something we've struggled with). However we are locked into our current TV deal, so moving the 'Nix now makes no difference. With the new deal, however, having both the 'Nix and Canberra would increase the mount of product and the value of the rights more than just by changing Canberra with the 'Nix. The financial argument makes sense, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes they do, I don't dispute that - but they don't increase at thd same rate or as much as say moving Nix to Canberra. Then you still have the issues like (a) nix can't play in the AFC (b) we can't have promo with nix in (c) nix don't have a team in the NYL (d) nix don't havd a team in our women's league (e) Australian football is short on cash and can't even afford basics like professional referees but we can afford to give millions each year to a non AFC member nation. It's nonsense. Sorry, but the arguements in support of nix cannot be financial, they have to be pure emotional arguments (which by the way I lose all the time - ask my wife!!)

Plus the increase in the Australian rights as the Australian sides will be playing more games as a result. Got it :D

Fox are paying $40m for the Australian sides, Sky are paying $100 k for NZ sides. Put an extra side in NZ you might get another $100k in TV rights (might!). Put an extra side in Aus (or move Phoenix) and you will get an extra $4m Get it?

.... plus keeping them in rules out promotion and relegation from the HAL at any point in the future - why should the NPL clubs have their dreams quashed to service a foreign market? Yes you can argue the possibility of promotion is years off but if they renew the Phoenix licence you close the door for 30-40 years. I understand the emotions behind this and don't suggest this lightly but the FFA need to bite the bullet and not renew their licence (move them of close them) and they need to go this for the good of the Australian game and the game within Asia.

But if you keep Wellington and include a new Australian club in the next media deal then the rights increase even more.

I hear what you're saying and it does sound like a plan, it doesn't overcome the AFC issue or the lack of TV funding locally of course.

Waz No one is more pro Australian Football than me .. OK there maybe a couple... however the simple maths are we need 12 teams playing over 33 rounds to create 200 + games ... We need two additional teams, both the Mariners and Jets need support and there is no obvious regional centre other than Canberra large enough and they already have a RL & RU team both struggling for crowds and to put an A-League side in such a crowded market is full of risk... The Nix are a stable side, their crowds are starting to look like they are heading in the right direction ... maybe move them to Auckland but to get rid of a side that pays its way and sits in a 4.5 million market place largely untapped should only be done if valid and sustainable teams are in place that would draw over 12K...

"As long as the television rights in Australia are worth more than the 2.5 million due to the extra product, let alone all the other benefits, the we are actually ahead" .... valid point, but they aren't hence the financial arguement against a Kiwi side. FOX Sports value games between two Australian sides the most, then Aus vs. another country, then pretty much writes down the value of two non Australian teams competing. This was seen in Super Rugby TV negotiations where they moved to a conference system to maximise domestic TV coverage. This is before you get into the HAL competing with the NZFAs domestic league and thd issues with the ACL. So Fox are paying more for Australian content than for Kiwi content - the arguement has been put forward that if you replaced Wellington with a 10th Australian side next season (you can't if course) the TV rights would rise from $40m to $44m and possibly $46m - that would put an extra $6.5-$8.5m per year into the Australia game

As long as the television rights in Australia are worth more than the 2.5 million due to the extra product, let alone all the other benefits, then we are actually ahead. The mantra that having Wellington in is holding Australian clubs back is a fallacy; it is simply incorrect. As you said, the increase in opportunities needs to come via adding new teams to the existing product. There may be a social argument regarding the removal of Wellington, but not an economic one.

Franko - Ouch, Tony Abbot, please, that hurts. I almost reported your post as offensive ;) NZ is already well serviced also - by Union, and League will out-invest us and to make matters worse, local TV won't pay to support a local team so Aus TV money flows across to support what is now the FFAs folly. I don't disagree the choice of where to put an Aus expansion team or two isn't tough, but I'd happily swap Wellington Phoenix for Canberra phoenix any day and I recon fox would give us another $4-6 million in the process. And so I'm not seen as anti-kiwi, I think the FFA needs to work with the NZFA as a close geographic partner on growing the game in both countries but having an orphan HAL side there clearly unable to pay their own way isn't the answer.

Indeed. As long as there is commensurate growth in the Australian television rights due to the additional product. Well done, you've got it :)