Rose and Ryan debate the 2015 AFL Mid Season All Australian Team

Ryan Buckland: Alright fellow Roar AFL expert Cam Rose, we’re at the halfway point of the 2015 AFL season.

A lot has happened, as we’ve been chronicling it along with The Roar‘s other footy writers, but something that’s missing is a look at who should make the All Australian team based on their performance to date.

You and I both watch a lot of football, and so have strong feelings on this. We’ve both compiled a starting 22, independently, and will now spend the next little while discussing, dissing and debating. For readers, you can see both of our teams at the end of this piece.

So Cam, I think it would be productive to start with an area of agreement. Let’s save the arguments for a bit later. We had 12 of the starting 22 selections overlapping, which I think is a good sign. A guy by the name of Nathan Fyfe made it to the ruck-rover position in both of our selected sides. He was my first selection, was he yours?

Cam Rose: Fyfe was certainly one of the three easiest to place for me, with the other two being Josh Kennedy and Eddie Betts in the forward line of course, as the clear leaders in their positions.

We also shared obvious candidates like Robbie Gray, Dan Hannebery, Paddy Dangerfield and Scott Pendlebury in midfield or half-forward positions. Your centreman was Matt Priddis, while I gave the nod to Dayne Beams. I know this could get said a lot, but Priddis was genuinely my 23rd man!

RYAN: It’s okay, I have a sneaking suspicion Priddis may like it better that way. The Brownlow count will be all the more interesting this year, given by all counts he is having a better numerical year than 2014. In saying that, he’s got some more competition this year from other Eagles’ midfielders.

Speaking of which, I didn’t find a spot for Andrew Gaff, but you’ve got him starting on the wing. I’ve always thought he’s too slight of frame to make a major impact in the new, six-foot-plus AFL. But his impact on West Coast’s season has been stark. Is he on the brink of becoming one of the game’s best outside players?

Also, thank you for not pointing out that I didn’t have Gray in my top 50 AFL players earlier in the year, but have now got him starting in the half year All Australian team. Oh wait, I just pointed it out!

ROSE: Yeah, I felt Gaff deserved a place as the dominant uncontested possession-getter in the competition, and provides great balance in my 22, which I try to strive for.

It takes a real man to admit his mistakes as you’ve done with Gray. Are you prepared to admit another with Matthew Boyd at half-back ahead of my Bachar Houli? Surely Boyd’s skipper was more worthy of a place at half-back if looking for someone from the Dogs? I put Dahlhaus on the bench to recognise them myself.

Matthew Boyd of the Western Bulldogs clears the ball through a crowd of Sydney Swans players. (Photo: Lachlan Cunningham/AFL Media)

RYAN: Boyd has been crazy good for the Bulldogs. Their half back line has been the biggest reason why they’ve managed to pull together more wins that Essendon to this point in the season. Not that it’s a particularly challenging task this season.

Eight marks and 16 kicks per game puts him in the top 10 for both categories, and his strong decision making has helped propel his team forward a couple of years earlier than I think everyone was expecting.

Houli was a close selection for me, but it takes a lot to include two players from the same team that play in the same part of the ground, and I went with First Team All Defence Alex Rance as my centre half back. Richmond’s defensive output doesn’t command two positions.

You, on the other hand, went with Harry Taylor at centre half back. That one surprised me a bit given you’re a closet Richmond fan from what I’m led to believe. Taylor has had more marks – probably more intercepts but we mortals don’t get that information – but Rance has had more spoils.

When you add together the marks and spoils of both, it’s largely even, and so I guess this comes down to personal preference. What makes Taylor your centre half back?

ROSE: As a Richmond man, I’ve felt Rance has been down on his All-Australian best from last year, perhaps distracted by the public speculation surrounding his future. I gave Taylor the nod off the back of some big performances that have most certainly helped his team win games.

RYAN: On Rance’s future quickly: is he worth the $800,000 being bandied about? It sounds like a lot for a defender – and it is – but with a lot of current contract negotiations you have to remember that we’re about to enter a brave new world in the AFL.

TV money is about to jump by up to one third, and the recently-installed AFL Players Association Chief Paul Marsh managed to get the country’s elite cricketers a pretty sweet deal in his last task for the cricket union. Eight hundred big ones may be borderline top 10 money in a few years’ time.

ROSE: I’m not a great judge of payment terms for players, but $800K feels alright to get a gun player to move, but I’d hope the Tiges don’t have to pay that to keep him.

RYAN: Indeed. Okay as you were.

ROSE: Boyd has always been a bit of a nothing player for me, with dodgy disposal. For poise and decision-making, give me Jarrad McVeigh at half-back. This also gives Sydney, the number two ranked defence, some well-earned representation down back in my team.

Our forward-line differences interest me. I went with a three tall structure, including Taylor Walker and Jack Riewoldt to complement Josh Kennedy. While you went with Buddy at CHF and Luke Breust as the extra forward pocket.

RYAN: I really, really wanted to put someone in from Sydney’s defence. As the number two defence it’s a bit of a misnomer not having someone represented there in my team I’ll admit. The Swans, everywhere except forward, are full of units that are greater than the sum of their parts. I’ll use that as my defence for not having a Swan in the back six. I can’t really argue with your inclusion of McVeigh – I do think he’s a tad over-rated though.

The forward line set up was where I think there was the most room to be flexible in the All Australian team to this point. As we’ve said Josh Kennedy and Eddie Betts really pick themselves based on output to this point.

I went with Franklin as my second tall, and key position forward, because of what he does and what he commands when he doesn’t have the ball, as much as when he has the ball in hand. Having Franklin is like having two players: a big lead up key forward, and a medium sized, around-the-ground threat.

Like LeBron James’ perennial MVP status, I think as long as he’s playing and kicking more than three goals a game, you have to include him. Walker is stiff to miss out, although I may have preferred one of the GWS boys as my second tall ahead of him anyway.

Franklin’s unselfish play has seen him turn from scorer to provider in 2015. (Photo: Mark Metcalfe/AFL Media)

Having Breust as the third option is a nod to the AFL’s buzziest of buzzwords: efficiency. I’d love to have the numbers, but I feel like he would be among the most efficient forward line players in the league. Well, perhaps behind West Coast’s Josh Hill right now, but over the past three and a half seasons.

I feel like when he’s the target, he’ll outmark his direct opponent more often than not, and as a crumbing option he’s under-rated. At 184cm, he plays big for his size, and is a really difficult match up for most defensive sets. I like having a smaller tall player as a third option, and Breust fits that type.

I managed to squeeze your man, and the bloke I affectionately call The Cadillac, Scott Pendlebury into my side as a forward. While he’s not quite hit 2011-Pendles from a goal kicking perspective, I have a suspicion he’ll end this year as a 25/1 midfielder (averaging 25 disposals and a goal a game). Where does he stand in the game’s hierarchy right now?

ROSE: I feel I have erred by not putting Buddy in, and he should be in ahead of Tex. I’m sure he will be in my end of year AA team.

Breust is a solid professional, but he’s never been one of “my” players for some reason, and his numbers so far this year, while solid, don’t scream “pick me”.

Gee, I really agonised over the ruck position, finally settling on Shane Mumford by a hair-width over Todd Goldstein with Aaron Sandilands third. His ground-level presence at the stoppages was what won me over, just nutting Goldstein’s mobility around the ground.

I’m not big on ruckman as a rule, so they really need to offer me a point of difference other than hit outs or even hit outs to advantage, which I know you’ll throw some record-breaking stats at me for the Freo big man…

RYAN: Franklin is the number one player in the AFL, after all… I mean, he’s not having a career year like he did last season (17 disposals, 3.9 inside 50s and 3.6 goals on 6.1 shots per game), but the contortions he enforces on the opposition haven’t gone away.

Ruck was by far the most difficult spot to pick, I think. For the first few rounds it was ‘Iron Man’ Goldstein. Then it was Shane ‘The Monster’ Mumford.

And in recent weeks it’s Aaron Sandilands. Sandi’s last two weeks have been ridiculous. Against the Tigers, he broke the all-time hit outs in a single game mark (63, by North Melbourne’s Gary Dempsey) set in 1982 against Adelaide in Round 9 (69 hit outs); and promptly broke it again in Round 11 (71).

And, he thought to himself that the raw hit out record wasn’t enough, and decided to stick something like 23 taps down his midfielder’s throats in Round 10 against the Tigers.

The man is a machine – has anyone proven he’s not actually The Terminator, sent from the future by the AFL to shepherd Fremantle to its maiden Premiership and therefore save Western Australia from the dynastic West Coast Eagles?

The most interesting thing with my selection, to call myself out again, was that I had The Monster as my number one, while the consensus pick was Sandilands. Now I’ve flipped. Not by much, mind. But I’ve still flipped.

ROSE: Great stats for Sandilands in that Richmond game, I’ll agree. How much did Freo win by again?

RYAN: Excluding the streakiest of streaky starts by the Tigers? About three points, I believe…

Just to jump back to the defence for a minute: just how stuffed would Essendon be without All-Australian-in-waiting Michael Hurley? I think he, and Cale Hooker, have formed one of the best key position defensive sets in the league over the past couple of years.

Does that mean Essendon anti-Coach James Hird is about to throw him forward? I bet it does.

ROSE: Good point on the Dons, I actually considered putting Hooker in my team too, I’m a big fan of both down back (as I am of Carlisle for that matter).

Ok let’s get back on track. Buddy number one? Please. Nat Fyfe is the number one player in the AFL! But perhaps we can save that for next week, when we review our Roar Top 50.

You mentioned Pendles earlier – I had him behind only Ablett and Fyfe as a midfielder at the start of the year, and I’m still very comfortable with that. In fact, no-one rated Fyfe as high as number two like I did, so that’s a little pat on my back…

Moving onto the bench and peripheral players – I can’t believe you’ve got Selwood in your team, I think you’ll be Robinson Crusoe on that one.

Battling his heart out under heavy tags, no doubt, and possibly carrying something, but really struggling for consistent impact. I’d actually have Blicavs on my bench ahead of Selwood.

RYAN: What is Blicavs? Do we need to create a new position for him? I feel like he’s a Justin Westhoff/Jarryd Roughead utility type, but one that is capable of playing through the midfield on a more sustained basis and perhaps a little more light on in the forward stakes.

I’m going to run with Centreback: a guy that runs around the middle and back half of the ground, filling a range of functions at an above average level, with a remit to stop the opposition doing whatever it does well. His season is something to behold, for sure.

ROSE: Blicavs is an unstoppable force at the moment, regardless of what we call him. His progression has been truly remarkable. I’d like to see Nic Nat be the second tall at stoppages a bit more, in a similar role, and use his clearance and in-close contested work strengths.

RYAN: Absolutely. I’d like to see Nic Nat just do things, to be honest. Jumping over other ruckman to take marks, for example.

I think it’s clear now Naitanui had really been hampered by what I guess was osteitis pubis in the end; and that he’s the pre-eminent centre bounce big man in the game. But he’s not in the side. Let’s get back to the pine warmers.

My hat tip for Selwood on the bench was because of his performance despite the clogged toilet of a midfield he has playing around him.

Where Selwood had Jimmy Bartel, Cameron Ling, Gary Ablett Jnr, peak-Corey Enright, et al around him in 2009, he now has blokes like Cam Guthrie (second half on the weekend notwithstanding), Jordan Murdoch and Josh Caddy. Sure, he’s down, but you have to consider context. And that context is he’s the lone ranger. So a bench spot seems just to me.

Has Selwood done enough in an underwhelming midfield brigade to pick up an All Australian bench spot? (Photo: David Callow/AFL Media)

ROSE: I still don’t see it. Lewis missing three games cost him consideration from me, but he’ll win me over more if he stops going third man up at the stoppages.

I looked at Lachie Neale, and I’m a big fan, but not quite yet for him. I wonder if Freo fans feels David Mundy is more deserving? For me, Sam Mitchell has been a more important driver for the Hawks than Lewis, and I wanted to recognise Dahlhaus and the Dogs.

David Armitage has been stellar, and I ended up with him on the bench over Priddis. Their stats are comparable, but I think doing it in a losing team has been the tougher ask.

RYAN: So you know how I said I put Fyfe in first? My second team addition was St Kilda’s Armitage in the bench spot.

That seems a little dismissive of his year and his improvement, I know, but when you’re racking up 30 a week for a team just getting off the canvas it, I don’t know, it doesn’t feel right to have a player like that starting on the ground.

Not to rip off a well-known sports guy, but is Armitage a good stats bad team guy? If he’s reeling in 30+ games in three or so years’ time, when the Saints really get going, we’ll know for sure. When comparing our lists I thought our final bench spot allocations were more with an eye to the future.

Neale has turned himself into a pocket rocket in a very short space of time, and had a really, really strong first five or so rounds. I feel like your selection of Dahlhaus is sort of along the same lines, so I can’t really criticise.

I reckon Mundy is very stiff to miss. Like I said before it’s often a challenge to put two players from the same team that play in the same positional group in the side. I really tried to fit Mundy in the back line to reflect what he’s added off half back for Fremantle this year, but I couldn’t go past Greater Western Sydney’s Heath Shaw. Those are two phrases I never thought I would join together…

ROSE: I agree on Armitage, I always knew he would be in there, and the bench seemed the natural fit. Hard to have him on the ground ahead of other guns we had.

Heath Shaw was one of the early locks for me as rebounder nonpareil. We both obviously like Michael Johnson as intercept marker and rebounder, and the Dockers have been dealt a blow with his injury. Your selection of Josh Gibson is a worthy one on face value, but I wonder if he’s been providing the drive of previous seasons, despite his impressive stats.

It’s interesting to note that you went four talls down back, albeit they are all players that offer flexibility, and cover different body types.

RYAN: I reckon my back line is a subconscious moment of reflection on where I see the game headed. We’re already seeing what can only be called a proliferation of blokes over the two metre mark scurrying around forward lines – defences will have to catch up at some point. My four defenders (lets face it, you only play four actual defenders these days) in Johnson, Hurley, Rance and Gibson are all medium-to-big, fast and flexible. I think that’s the defence of the future.

If we were to ever find out a way to actually play All Australian games – and do so with cloned players, so we could see our 12 overlappers play – I’d be interested to see how your more attacking back six shaped up against my admittedly defensively stacked half dozen. It’s an interesting little wrinkle.

Johnson’s position could have gone to fellow Fremantle stopper Luke McPharlin, I reckon, who is playing like a spritely 30 year old this season. The loss of Johnson for Fremantle is massive. If there’s one spot you don’t want to lose a player, its key defender.

They don’t grow on trees, particularly good ones like Johnson, and he’s the undisputed General of the back 50 for the Dockers. Young Alex Pearce has acquitted himself well so far in Johnson’s place, but he’s only faced off against Essendon, the Western Bulldogs and Gold Coast thus far. Much sterner tests await.

So I want to finish on two players: Patrick Dangerfield and Dylan Shiel. I had these two as my starting wing players, which I guess you could say means I’d have them as my fifth and sixth men in contested situations. Could they be one of the more devastating forward-of-centre one-two punches that we’ve seen in recent history?

ROSE: I do tend to err on the side of attack when it comes to my defenders, that’s a good pick-up. Perhaps I’m more Malcolm Blight than Michael Malthouse when it comes to selecting teams.

With so many of the gun mids playing forward these days, the two half-forward positions are basically an extension of the midfield, so I had Dangerfield named there while you had him on a wing. He’s lifted his game a little this year, back to his best. Shiel has been getting plenty of ball and been damaging with it, but has really caught the eye as a beautiful mover, in a way that even a Dangerfield or Hannebery never will be.

RYAN: Shiel looks like an NFL wide receiver when he gets going, a freight train but that can turn at right angles. I don’t know if he’s got a rugby background perhaps? I’m led to believe that a lot of guys that play in the AFL in New South Wales have rugby backgrounds. Either way, his re-signing with the Giants is massive, if only because it means he won’t play for Collingwood or Carlton.

We’re talking about Danger, so the obligatory question follows: does he stay or does he go?

ROSE: I generally don’t get into speculation on these “stay or go” questions, because I find it all rather pointless, and to be honest I just don’t care until it happens. So there’s a typically blunt Cameron Rose answer for you to finish things off on!

RYAN: Blunter than the Windy Hill forward line. I think he stays, if only because Adelaide are closer to a flag than a stubbornly-rebuildy-but-not-rebuildy Geelong.

Just one last thing. Is there anyone that you feel is particularly stiff in not making our respective cuts? For me, the lack of anyone from the Richmond midfield sticks out a bit, although there’s an argument that they’ve only gotten good in the past…five weeks? One of the Giants forward line spearheads would have to feel a bit flat to miss, too. I mean, we’re the holders of very important and pervasive opinions.

ROSE: The two GWS forwards don’t do enough else outside their goals, and I’d have loved to have squeezed Shane Edwards as the key player this year from the Tigers. Perhaps Tom Bellchambers was the stiffest to miss out?

RYAN: Bellchambers, Chapman, really anyone from Essendon.

Watch out, here come Hirdy’s lawyers now!