The Sydney Roosters have been the top target of rival club fans for decades now. Probably ever since the club Chairman became the first major sponsor back in the day.
City Ford became the pioneer club of sponsorships, rather than the chook raffles and small Leagues Club handouts prior to that.
They also were the first club to re-invent their Leagues Club and for the football club to be the controller of the Leagues Club, rather than the other way around.
This all set the place up to be a much more business-like entity, even in the 1970s.
Bob Fulton, almost the last captain coach ever, ran a professional footy club operation, with players required to train during the day – unheard of in its time.
Players had to have training friendly jobs, and only the top players had the benefit of both these jobs and the top end training that Fulton and his assistants provided.
With some notable periods of exception, the old Eastern Suburbs Roosters have adapted pretty quickly to the many professional and business changes that have swept into, and out of, the league landscape, maintaining a very high profile as a top tier club.
It’s no surprise that people still look on with a mix of awe and surprise at how they maintain those lofty heights. And, of course, for the wretched rivals, they are fodder for savage accusations.
The salary cap issue leads the way in modern times: how can they possibly fit all those top players under the cap?
Firstly, I know that the relationship between NRL headquarters and the Roosters has been frosty, maybe not at the moment as I’m not there anymore, but certainly a few years back.
To think that the salary cap auditors, or the NRL top dogs, would cut the Roosters some slack and turn a blind eye to overpayments is laughable when you know the inside workings of the place.
Secondly, those who cry foul don’t know what players are receiving. At times, I didn’t even know myself as head coach.
So how on earth is someone outside the place going to offer pinpoint accuracy in assessing their player spend? They don’t. It’s all a guess or driven by fictitious reports in the media.
On that score, I can tell you that at times the number on some players’ contracts, at plenty of clubs other than the Roosters, were wrongly assessed by media people by literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.
The real truth about the Roosters’ success on the field is largely based on two key factors.
The first is a long-term plan that has paid off in spades.
Since Peter O’Sullivan has moved from Melbourne, the Roosters have followed a pattern that has proven itself over and over, unlike other clubs that have either had a plan and failed to stick with it, or were seriously flawed in the long term.
It’s been O’Sullivan who has selected players both for recruitment and largely for removal from the playing roster. Not the head coach. And not the CEO.
Not even the chairman, as perhaps had been the case in the past. Well, almost not.
He did chat with the head coach, in my time there, on most transactions.
O’Sullivan recruited the best available players coming out of under 20s to go with the very best kids he had hand-picked and developed from 17 and 18 years old. The NYC players were offered two-year deals at the minimum pay allowed, but the two years to some who were rejected by their original clubs was real security and a shot at being a full-time player was a lure.
Daniel Tupou was one of those who wasn’t being selected in Parramatta’s NYC team regularly but after a one year course in footy coaching at Newtown, winning them a competition, he was ready for the NRL.
And State of Origin. And a premiership.
Of course, some were paid well over that minimum, but still way below established first graders if he deemed them to be immediate or nearly a chance of cracking NRL level in their first year.
Jared Waerea-Hargreaves and Roger Tuivasa Sheck are top examples. Pearce and Friend were recruited at 16; Mitch Aubusson and Boyd Cordner at 17.
Dylan Napa was picked up without much of a fight from other clubs; Kane Evans was locked into a long-term deal and has taken a long time to crack the NRL, as O’Sullivan predicted.
Still, he stuck with him as he battled to grow into that massive frame.
Shaun Kenny-Dowall was a blow-in on a trial. Sam Moa was rejected by other clubs and went to Hull in the Super League and returned to do his best at a rebirth in the NRL.
The ‘trick’ to it all is this.
If you can get as many ‘underpaid’ players as possible into the top 25, you can manage to increase the pay of those who do well so as to retain them and still have the money to buy in some ‘bankers’ with experience and proven class – SBW, James Maloney and Michael Jennings in recent seasons.
That premiership-winning season must have been very a squeezy fit, I admit.
But the most significant part of this system O’Sullivan has employed is that it requires great development staff to make it work.
The head coach needs to have superb development qualities, and so does his whole staff to elevate those younger and less fancied players into NRL standard quickly.
Just count how many players the Roosters have in their squad who have never played NRL for another club, were rejected before they came to the club, or had no real top quality credentials before arriving there.
Few others can match the skill and accuracy of O’Sullivan’s selections, nor the quality of professional servicing of their players by the Roosters coaching staff.
James
Roar Rookie
Smithy hit the nail on the head, "those who cry fowl don't know what players are receiving" and "it's all guess or driven by fictitious reports by the media". It is still very evident here amongst you lot crying fowl that think your intel and source through the media is gospel. Wake up and smell the roses, don' t believe everything you read.
Cranky old ref
Guest
Yeah, amazing, how a club who gave all their juniors to souths as they had a tiny comp and could field enough teams to run a junior comp can somehow get a strong team over many years. No development of juniors equals plenty of money to poach young players from other clubs. They have no juniors, the smallest supporter base but bundles of money. Thats why we hate them
Scottyvee1986
Roar Rookie
Jay C I'm certainly not saying that about players values at all. But it works both ways, people see that he signs for 850K with the warriors and they assume that's what the roosters are paying him and then scream that the roosters are over the cap. Yes, you're 100% right we have one of the smallest junior bases in the league (700 junoirs compared to say penrith's 10,000) so it is hard to draw from that pool which is why O'Sullivan gets these sort of players young. Mind you, if the NRL wold give us our territory back that they gave to Souths in the 50's it might actually even things up a bit, but that's another story. So its not the century more like half a century.
Jay C
Roar Guru
No one's saying they are getting their free market value. At least. I'm not saying that. My issue is this. Roosters sign RTS for his market value at the time. 100K. He plays out of his skin - which yes, it's thanks to the Roosters very high quality training. So he probably greys am upgrade and bonuses for International selection. So let's say he is now taking up the 200K that you speak of. But the Warriors are going to pay him 850K so he signs with them. Roosters supporters now claim they must have 850k in their cap to pay for a new marquee signing. That is the only issue i have. If you look at this century you can see that Roosters management run their roster different to every other club. Instead of trying to be successful every year, they aim for a premiership every 5. Which is a very smart move when you basically have no junior system to draw from. I'm not anti the Roosters at all. They are about middle of the table of hate.
Scottyvee1986
Roar Rookie
Jay C Im not suggesting that at all all i am suggesting is that he is not being paid his current market value, like all the other players that have improved under the roosters. RTS is now worth $850K per season but i'd be surprised if the roosters are paying him anymore than $200K. You are 100% correct to suggest that contracts are complex and that they are not still on minimum wage but there are certainly not getting their current market value. Hence, the argument of "the roosters' roster is so good they must be over the cap" is just plain wrong.
Jay C
Roar Guru
NRL contracts are not a simple. You play for us, you earn X. They are littered with performance bonuses, rep team bonuses. Most of the juniors that came in are paid minimum wage but they get more if they break into first grade and so on. It is why there are so many issues around the cap. It is why the Panthers couldn't play Moylan 2 years ago. If he played first grade he would get more money and that would put them over the cap. Unless the Roosters are the only club in the comp who do not put performance bonuses into their contracts then signing a nobody means nothing once they perform. Are we really suggesting that Tupou is on the minimum wage he made when he first signed? Despite being an established NSW winger he is taking home 70K (whateva) from the Roosters. Laughable.
Scottyvee1986
Roar Rookie
You know they are on upgrades how? They were nobodies coming the roosters. Based on your theory we are signing nobodies who may or may not crack it in the big time but offering them upgrades anyway? Come on man. They were signed young for a minimal contract and now they have made it are valued higher in the market so the roosters cannot hold onto them. RTS is a prime example of that. JWH was unwanted in the sense that manly did not offer him his market value so you are right in saying that the roosters paid him more, yes they did, we payed him what he was worth. However i will apologise about the SBW "cap restraint" comment as that was incorrect as he did leave on his own accord. And what is your point about RTS, Maloney and Toupou running out this weekend? They are still contracted with us until their contracts expire at the end of the season? My point to the last paragraph was to state that people always say "the roosters have a star studded line up so how can they be under the cap" and the answer simply being that these players were not stars when they came to the chooks and we turned them into stars and now can't keep them all because their market value went up.
Dr Yes
Guest
Trent Robinson has ethical standards equal or higher than any coach. One tiny example: refuses to milk penalties - tells his blokes to get up no matter the situation & despite all other teams faking & milking. He's not Robinson Carusoe in the club with his ethics, either. Straight ad-hominem here, no info.
Dr Yes
Guest
bit of a stream of consciousness?
Dr Yes
Guest
You can criticise the man's past. You can criticise the Storm. You can criticise the Roosters for hiring him. But the NRL did grant him clearance to be employed within the game, where Waldron & Hanson were banned for life. And the fact the Storm broke the rules gives zero indication that the Roosters break rules. In some arguments, when people have no facts & run out of argument logic, they resort to playing the man (or club), not the ball. "Ad-hominem" tactic = classic fallacy. "Must be guilty because I don't like the bloke/club/area/mascot". More-or-less what Smithy stated. Also, arguing that the Tigers or Eels have a crap roster / management therefore the Roosters break the rules is equally highly & obviously fallacious. Just because some other team can't get their act together does not require the Roosters to be equally poor. You could consider the Chooks being bold enough to hire & stick with O'Sullivan as a type of moneyball tactic in itself. Other's teams mightn't have gone with him (well, they didn't ...). And a big part of moneyball is that you have to pay a severe price with your favourites sometimes, to reach better value. The Rooster's had to let favourite son Artie Beetson go to get O'Sullivan. Ditto RTS & Maloney to bring through the future stars.
Dr Yes
Guest
they have missed the 8 5 times in the last ten ears including a spoon in 2009 Correct. After each cycle of success, the Chooks have a large dip. That's evidence of the cap working - not of rorting.
Dr Yes
Guest
You're complaining that they take in very young players with no record at all and take on their full development - in many cases to international level? Should they leave this area well alone at let all the other teams take maximum advantage? V poor of them. Lol.
Dr Yes
Guest
Jay C v Smithy Smackdown Jay C: "Any of these juniors ‘signed on nothing’ would have had big upgrades written into their contracts. ... Players get upgrades mid contract. I would be pretty surprised if Tupou is still running out on minimum wage. ... R" Smithy: "So how on earth is someone outside the place going to offer pinpoint accuracy in assessing their player spend? They don’t. It’s all a guess or driven by fictitious reports in the media. " Strong win to Smithy. O'Sullivan's contracts for these players don't have conditions that increase payments. Tupou last registered a modest contract upgrade & extension in Feb 2013, after 3 games of NRL experience, taking him to end of 2015. RTS last registered a modest contract upgrade & extension in Dec 2012, after 6 NRL games, taking him to end 2015. Similarly, Moa, Evans, Friend, Pearce, Aubusson, Napa, JWH are on same contracts and payments as start of 2013, no upgrades registered. Moa, Tupou, RTS, Evans, Napa on low payments. Majority of these players are to start new contracts in the next 1-2 years. Jay C: "We know Gus was paying Jennings wage but that is finished now." Smithy: "If you can get as many ‘underpaid’ players as possible into the top 25, you can manage to increase the pay of those who do well so as to retain them and still have the money to buy in some ‘bankers’" Smithy wins again. Jennings' contract with Penrith *is* live to end of 2015 - they're paying half his wage. Jay C: "Minichello retired and was registered on very little." Smithy: "count how many players the Roosters have in their squad who have never played NRL for another club" Draw here. Saying the same thing. After 2013 premiership, Minichiello was to be let go due to cap. Instead, accepted a v small 1 year contract. Long Serving Player discount meant he contributed nothing to the cap. Jay C:"Roosters always claim ‘oh we signed them when they were young’ but you can’t just claim that forever. Most of the players in the Roosters line up are Internationals, there are almost no debutants in the current side. What other team has that?" Smithy: "O’Sullivan recruited the best available players coming out of under 20s to go with the very best kids he had hand-picked and developed from 17 and 18 years old. ... some were paid well over that minimum, but still way below established first graders ... you can manage to increase the pay of those who do well so as to retain them and still have the money to buy in some ‘bankers’" Smithy takes the series! 2 players had rep experience before playing for Chooks: reserve-grader Matagi (5 int games), plus JWH (2 int games & 6 NRL). Most of the Internationals are on contracts dating to time they were NYC / reserve players (RTS, Cordner, Moa, Evans, Lui, Taukeiaho). Add Jennings on a subsidised contract. Following have little NRL experience prior to 2015: Taukeiaho (1 game), Hastings (1 game), Elliot (1 game), Langi (1 game), Nene MacDonald (7 games), Evans (9 games), McIlwrick. As a separate point, Taukeiaho, Ferguson, Manu, Setu, Matagi & Kennedy are cases of the "under the odds" approach - Taukeiaho transitioning from unknown to future star, Ferguson after deregistration, personal coaching & dev, then re-registration, Manu as a 35yo after a long career & finishing Super League, Matagi & Setu & Kennedy discards - the latter's an example of risks involved here. This all backs Smithy's point about moneyball, not Jay C's "I imagine brown paper-bags, so it's true".
KillaKanga
Roar Rookie
duad yep,a full on case of fughoddaboudit ;-)
Nate
Guest
Kevin, the term was coined in Oakland not Harlem.
The duad
Guest
Your forgetting the "Godfather" makes offers you can't refuse and owns shares in a brown paper bag factory.
Muzz
Guest
The information above Jay was originally on this Panthers press release but has since been removed. http://www.penrithpanthers.com.au/news-display/Statement-regarding-Michael-Jennings/67281.html
Jay C
Roar Guru
HAHAHAHAHA. Did you even read the articles you just tried to throw at me? Obviously not. "His Roosters contract is an entirely new deal, meaning Penrith will not be required to subsidise the deal as had been expected." My understand was that his Panthers deal was for 1.8M for 2013,14 and 15. He was signed for 13,14,15,16 by the Roosters for 2M. The Panthers paid around 300,000 in the first year and that is it. Also, c'mon Muzz, I don't hate the Roosters. I just think they are rorting the salary cap.
Muzz
Guest
That is incorrect Jay!! Why hasn't there been any news or offers for next season if 1 of the games best centres is off-contract? Jennings signed a 4 year deal worth around $2 million of which the Panthers will pay half as he was originally contracted with them until the end of 2016. Your hatred for the Roosters makes you look no different than Phil Rothfield at times. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/news/sydney-roosters-sign-michael-jennings-on-four-year-deal-after-penrith-agree-to-contract-release/story-fncagcd8-1226554468956 http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/jennings-signs-with-roosters-on-fouryear-deal-20130115-2cr7x.html
Jay C
Roar Guru
lol. Where are you getting that info about Jennings? Gus has stated it was 300,000 in 2013 and that is all. Jennings was only signed for seasons 13,14 and 15 with the Panthers so you are just making up stuff now. http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/departure-of-jennings-to-benefit-panthers-20130115-2crme.html Maloney and RTS gone. How much did Fergo just sign for? It would be 4-6 at least. RTS was supposedly on minimum wage so won't count as much. Will Tupou's lawyer fees be coming out of the cap?