Naitanui versus Goldstein worth the price of admission

and Sandi head to head with Goldstein this season - Rnd 8 Freo smash North, Sandi 2 K, 11 HB, (6 CP), 4 marks (3 CM), 1 goal 1 bh, 30 HO, 1 Tk Goldie 3 K, 4 HB, (3 CP), 3 marks (1 CM), 0 goal, 1 bh, 31 HO, 5 Tk Rnd 21 Freo get overrun by North Goldie 9 K, 6 HB, (6 CP), 6 marks (1 CM), 2 goals, 28 HO, 5 Tk Sandi 2 K, 12 HB, (14 CP), 4 marks (4 CM), 2 goals, 43 HO, 5 Tk What's that say? Both good players. Sandilands might tend to push forward more often than Goldstein because outside Pavlich, there aren't necessarily the big forward 50 targets. While Goldstein at North is less likely to push up with Petrie, Brown and Waite patrolling forward 50. Sandilands +3 on inside 50 marks, but then Goldstein is +2 for goals, and +8 on scoring shots and + 4 for Goal Assists. Goldstein doubles Sandi for inside 50s (52 v 26), and plus 29 on clearances (83 v 54). Goldstein 340 disp (avg ~15), about 55% Uncontested possessions. Sandilands 279 disp (avg ~13), about 62% UP) What is clear though is Goldstein is more likely to kick - his kick to hb ratio is about 5:6 while Sandilands is about 2:9. This is very indicative of the different style of players they are - and Sandilands is a pretty good kick normally.

Nic has more sustained bursts than Rioli and they are getting longer. His worst this year has still been pretty damn good and his best has been sublime. How many games did Rioli win for the Hawks this year? At a guess I'd say Nic would be responsible for 8-10 of them. He is WC's most important player, not the best but definetly the most important (some may argue for Gov or Schoey and I get the argument but that's due to short-term injures and temporary). The Hawks beat WC when Nic didn't play. WC thrashed the Hawks when Nic played but without Priddis and Masten. One could argue for Kennedy but we still have Darling, Gov (2016), Lamb, McInness, Lecca, Cripps and Hill and we go deeper still. There are a number of similarities between them. Nic can do practically anything that Rioli can do but Rioli can't do everything that Nic can do. More importantly Rioli can't dominate the centre square and stoppages - not many players regularly can and those that can, can't do what Nic does at ground level. No disrespect to Cyril but Nic is on another level.

Contested possessions, tackles, clearances and kicking goals are also handy skills.

That's quite a gap. I might know why. Simmo and the players often talk about keeping it simple while working and focusing on their strengths and I don't think uncontested marking is a focus for them ATM. Dean Cox has been mentoring him since day 1 and he was one of the best at finding space and linking up - Nic is intelligent and talented and has the speed to run to space so between them I'd be very surprised if they couldn't have worked it out over the last 7 years if it was important to them. I have a feeling that they are spending more time on other parts of his game eg making sure that WC wins the contested ball and centre clearances and get the ball inside 50 so that they can lock it in and score. Simmo was coached by Pagan and he had North bombing it inside 50 because he had Carey. Simmo has Nic and he also has JK and a talented forward line - it's a pretty simple game plan in many respects. Simmo took the precision ball movement from Clarko and applied that also. I'm not dismissing his low uncontested tally but I don't think that it's that important in the grand scheme of things.

From Brenton Sanderson: "West Coast is conceding a remarkable 72 points a game this year. Interestingly, they’ve only done that twice before, in 1991 and 1994, making the grand final in both years and winning it in ’94. The Eagles have stopped sides from kicking more than 1 goal in a quarter 32 times — more than any other club - 10 of those were goal-less quarters. They can certainly tighten the screws when they need to and shut a side out. In 4th quarters WC has scored 675 points and conceded 387 (101 goals to 56) for a percentage of 174.4 in last quarters which is the highest by any side since 1971." He talks about Freo and the other finalists as well, here's the link. http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/sport/afl/brenton-sanderson-west-coast-eagles-are-the-masters-of-defence/story-fnjuhrq4-1227537554759

Brad - it's all pretty well subjective. West Coast has a far greater home ground advantage that North. Yes - the travel can be arduous across the season and certainly WA sides struggle in Tassie (well, most sides - even North got smashed in Launceston by Buddy Franklin a few years back). The playing of only 5 sides twice is interesting too - certainly the Eagles had the Doggies and Crows twice - they made the finals having missed last year. The Doggies however - again - had a pretty favourable draw. How do we judge them? Well, after losing first week of finals they'll again fall into the middle fixture band for next year. One must expect them to 'improve' next year. North had Essendon and Geelong twice and went 4-0 on these. However - Geelong was a top 6 2014 side and had a tougher draw than those ranked below. They just missed finals action this year. Still - a quality club/side however even Melbourne penetrated the Kardinia Park fortress. Essendon - early in the season were a team capable of anything - as Hawthorn would attest to. But get them in the back half of the year and they were a spent force. Heck - North got Gold Coast with Ablett returning fit and raring to go. North got smashed up there. The Eagles smashed Gold Coast at home but then were held to a draw away. So much can depend on where and when you play an opponent. That's why - come September and finals and this is the mini season that counts. And correct. Last year counts for nothing now. Likewise mid season in Hobart. However - it does - as I said - provide North with belief and that is far better than the alternative.

Pretty well sums up my thinking - those umps are not silly the way they award their Brownlow votes.i

'Caught betwixt and between" ! Well he was obviously where the ball was at, which is no bad thing. As Jack Dyer used to say "... first of all ya gotta get the ball..."

A tap-ruckman only gives his teammates the chance to have first use of the ball. Of course every team wants that chance, but it's really up to the midfielder what happens after that chance. If a good ruckman taps down to an average midfielder you can expect an average outcome. If an average ruckman taps the ball down to a good midfielder you can expect a good outcome. In the end it is the midfielder who has the bigger influence on the outcome of the game.

That sounds good when you read it like that but let's as you say 'look a little deeper'. "First of all – North were a top 6 fixture band side this year. West Coast a mid 6 fixture band side. That makes a difference." If you judge the draw only by the start of the season then yes you are quite correct, you re-look at the draw at the end of the season and the 'toughness' off the draw changes quite considerably. At the start of the season North's draw was considered the 6th hardest and WCE the 14th, this is only looking at teams played twice and not travel or 6 day breaks ect. End of the season and you look at those same teams played twice and North sit with the 9th hardest draw whist the WCE sit 6th, having a HARDER draw than North. http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/how-hawthorn-ended-up-with-one-of-the-easiest-2015-afl-fixtures-despite-winning-2014-premiership/story-e6frf3e3-1227516241041 "Given that North have defeated the Eagles the last 2 meetings – one in Hobart this year and at Subiaco last year" Beat WCE in Tasmania, longest travel in football and somewhere neither of the WA based teams play particularly well, put that with the worst weather for the year, footballs flying backwards and the win was hardly impressive. Last year is last year, can hardly say that the two Eagles teams are really even worth comparing are they?

Look at it this way: If Goldstein had the greatest game of his life but Ziebell, Swallow and Cunnington all had a shocker, Goldsteins influence on the match would be negligible. Conversely, is Goldstein had a horrible game Zieball, Swallow and Cunnington could still win the midfield contest by sharking the oppositions taps.

Ruckman are overrated? I really don’t get this sentiment. Answer this question. Would North be a better team with Goldstein or Daniel Curry in their team this week? If ruckman don’t influence the game like you suggest, I guess it would make no difference to their chances of winning this week?

How about the Swans in 2012 and Hawthorn in 2013-14? The last 3 premierships have been won by teams without ruck domination. Let's wait till Freo win one before we label it 'essential'.

Sandi has done it in every other game. Maybe that's the reason why Freo won more games than anyone else this year. Conclusive proof that ruck dominance is essential. You pulled out only one game. That's not really conclusive compared to the sample proffered, above.

You see, interpretation of stats depend on the team you barrack for. I'd say Sandi took twice as many contested marks because he got to twice as many contests. Goldy got a stack of uncontesteds because he was caught betwixt and between. I don't believe that...but the stats say that.

No such thing as 'cheap' for Goldstein - the 'uncontested' marks are due in no small part to his superior and recognised work rate. It's not as if he's gone back to the defensive goal square and got a switching backwards kick to someone unmarked. While Contested marks is a good stat - the other things to gauge included number of contests got to - bringing the ball to ground and not being beaten.

The question is whether you regard North as a regular '8th' team or if you look a tad deeper. First of all - North were a top 6 fixture band side this year. West Coast a mid 6 fixture band side. That makes a difference. North opted against attempting to finish 5th or 6th (once Geelong were knocked out of contention) - due to lack of compelling reason to bust a gut to try to get there. So - a little short sighted to dismiss out of hand as just an 8th placed side. Given that North have defeated the Eagles the last 2 meetings - one in Hobart this year and at Subiaco last year - that means that North enter with belief and that is an important piece of any footy puzzle. West Coast haven't been in the finals since 2012. North made the prelim last year - and aim to go one better this year - having now won 4 out of 5 finals in 13 months. This may well be North's GF this year - and like in some cases the team that had the tougher Prelim final hit out does well in the GF. For North - they hard a solid finals hit out against the Swans last week while the Eagles had a week off. That may oddly enough favour North - this week. The Rnd 23 'resting' of 9 of the squad. That is a little joker in the pack for North - the benefit more likely to be felt this week compared even to the first final. North have prepared to peak about now. Write North off at your peril.

We're on a roll Don

Good comparison...while Sandi is Joel Garner and Nic Nat is Michael Holding.