No Moore debate: Folau says Wallabies back their leader

Good on ya mate Long list though eh? Players propping up the NH club system. Not to mention the international SH coaches dragging your test sides up. Catch ya later :)

ebop - Really? 192 players? So in your view, this figure is representative of the 'hundreds(plural) and hundreds of players' that are propping up the NH? Did you exaggerate... much? Wow! I'll take that cream pie now!! There are around 900 players with professional contracts that play in the English leagues alone. This figure does not include players with professional contracts in Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Italy or France. Seemingly. you are reluctant to address the remaining points in my previous post (in response to yours!) in a logical or coherent fashion. Or is it that you're unable to do so? This is not a criticism... however, until you are willing or able to do so, I have neither the time or inclination to engage with you any further.

Well Goatee you did ask for a cream pie in your face so here it is. A list from a year or so ago. It'll be out of date. Some of the below have left no doubt. Others have joined. I imagine I didn't even capture all of them at the time! This was just from the top leagues from memory. And instead of nit-picking errors if there are any, just soak it up mate. South Africa (57 players) Albertus Buckle, Bakkies Botha, Ben Venter, Berend Botha, Brian Mujati, Bryan Habana, Charl McLeod, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Cobus Grobler, Coenraad Basson, Craig Burden, Demetri Catrakilis, Deon Fourie, Flip van-der-Merwe, François van-der-Merwe, Frans Viljoen, Gerhard Mostert, Gerhard Vosloo, Gert Muller, Gio Aplon, Gurthrö Steenkamp, Heini Adams, Heinke van-der-Merwe, Hendrik Roodt, Jacques Cronjé, Jacques du-Plessis, Jandré Marais, Jannie Bornman, JC Janse-van-Rensburg, Jody Jenneker, Johan Coetzee, Johan Goosen, Juan Smith, Juandré Kruger, Kevin Buys, Marcel van-der-Merwe, Meyer Bosman, Morne Steyn, Naude Beukes, Pat Barnard, Paul Willemse, Pedrie Wannenburg, Peet Marais, Peter Grant, Petrus Hauman, Rassie Van-Vuuren, Riaan Smit, Riaan Swoepoel, Ricky Januarie, Robert Ebersohn, Ross Skeate, Ruaan du-Preez, Schalk Ferreira, Steven Kitshoff, Ulrich Beyers, Wian du-Preez, Wynand Olivier New Zealand (53 players) Adam Whitelock, Aled de-Malmanche, Alex Luatua, Alex Tulou, Anthony Tuitavake, Ben Tameifuna, Benson Stanley, Blair Stewart, Carl Hayman, Casey Laulala, Chris King, Chris Masoe, Corey Flynn, Dan Carter, Daniel Kirkpatrick, Dwayne Haare, Dylan Hayes, Fritz Lee, Hamish Gard, Hikairo Forbes, Hoani Tui, Hugh Chalmers, Jackson Willison, Jason Eaton, Jayden Spence, Joe Rokocoko,, Jono Owen, Karena Wihongi, Kendrick Lynn, Krisnan Inu, Lachie Munro, Luke Braid, Luke McAlister, Ma'a Nonu, Mathew Graham, Matthew Clarkin, Neemia Tialata, Nigel Hunt, Patrick Toetu, Peter Saili, Piri Weepu, Roimata Hansell-Pune, Romana Graham, Rory Grice, Rudi Wulf, Saimone Taumoepeau, Sitiveni Sivivatu, Stephen Brett, Toby Arnold, Tom Donnelly, Tom Taylor, William Whetton, Zac Guildford Australia (29 players) Adam Ashley-Cooper, Alfie Mafi, Anthony Hegarty, Ben Hand, Ben Mowen, Blair Connor, Brock James, Damien Fitzpatrick, David Lyons, Dayna Edwards, Digby Ioane, Drew Mitchell, George Smith, Henry Vanderglas, Hugh Pyle, John Ulugia, Lalakai Foketi, Mark Chisholm, Matt Giteau, Nic White, Paul Alo-Emile, Peter Kimlin, Poutasi Luafutu, Quade Cooper, Richard Kingi, Salesi Ma'afu, Sekope Kepu, Sitaleki Timani, Will Genia Fiji (27 players) Akapusi Qera, Albert VuliVuli, Alipate Ratini, Benito Masilevu, Dominiko Waqaniburotu, Gabiriele Lovobalavu, Jone Qovu, Josua Tuisova, Kini Murimurivalu, Levani Botha, Malakai Bakaniceva-Radikedike, Metuisela Talebula, Mosese Ratuvou, Napolioni Nalaga, Peceli Yato, Saïmoni Vaka, Sakiusa Matadigo, Samisoni Viriviri, Sevania Galala, Sireli Bobo, Sisa Koyamaibole, Timoci Matanavou, Timoci Nagusa, Uwa Tawalo, Venione Vortemaya, Waisea Nayacalevu, Waisele Sukanaveita Samoa (15 players) Alofa Alofa, Benjamin Sa, Census Johnston, David Smith, Joe Tekori, Maurie Fa'asavalu, Na'ama Leleimalefaga, Ole Avei, Paul Ah-Him, Paul Williams, Pelu Taele, Piula Fa'asalele, Sakaria Taulafo, Taiasina Tui'fua, Ti’i Paulo Tonga (11 players) Andrew Ma'ilei, Daniel Kilioni, Edwin Maka, Hemani Paea, Joe Tuineau, Lisiate Fa'aoso, Paea Fa'anunu, Soane Tonga'uiha, Sona Taumalolo, Vaea Fifita, Viliami Ma'afu

ebop - 'Seriously though, can you explain why hundreds upon hundreds of SH players prop up NH club competitions?' The problem is ebop, is that you continue to make big sweeping generalisations that don't hold up under scrutiny. Who are these 'hundreds upon hundreds of SH players?' Who told you this, or did you make it up? Produce the evidence. Which particular NH club competitions are being 'propped' up by all of these players? The Pro-12 (Celtic nations, plus Italy) was won by Connacht this year who beat Leinster in the final. Connacht's run-on team contained one former SR player, Bundee Aki. The remainder were all home-grown - and that also applied to 22 players out of the match-day 23. Saracens, the current Aviva Premiership and European champions fielded one former SR player (Schalk Brits) in their run-on side in the Euro final against Racing 92. In Brits case, he started the match because the first-choice hooker Jamie George (England!) was just returning from injury. Saracens run-on side that day contained six current England players. By contrast, their opponents that day, contained six former SR players, including Dan Carter. They lost 21-9, As a neutral observer, I was not alone in thinking (the media reports reflected this) that the scoreline flattered Racing 92. Racing did however, manage to win the French Top 14 - and yes, France's international team are seemingly also going backwards. However, according to your narrative, you would surely have expected Racing, with all its 'superior' SR experience to have beaten Saracens. The reality is that a number of 'good' SH players tend to move to Europe (towards the end of their career) because cash-rich clubs in the NH recognise that household names, wherever they are from, tend to put backsides on seats. As referred to earlier, the current English and European champions, Saracens, have seven current England players in their run-on side. They have just won two of the biggest competitions in the NH. Their success alone, suggests that your argument regarding the NH being in need of SH players to 'prop up its competitions' is once again, a flawed one.

If a player, such as Folau, doesnt think Moore is up to it he wouldnt come out publicly and say it while hes still in the team

Not one bit Taylorman. My point is...I have never heard a player anywhere (when he's still in the team) ever say publicly he doesnt think his captain is up to it

You're a bit of a joke That help you Goatee? Seriously though, can you explain why hundreds upon hundreds of SH players prop up NH club competitions? Who do these SH players displace? Inferior NH players is my best guess. Such huge populations and so few top quality players. What's also amusing, is the number of hasbeen SH players that are displacing potential NH talent.

Sooo...you believe them then?

This is a nothing story. What public comment would you expect from Folau or any other Wallabies player. "Nah, we have no faith in our captain!" C'mon...

ebop - 'Do you get the joke?' (Did you make one?) Sorry! Comedy gold, ebop!! It was very amusing... rather like your incoherent ramble which attempted to argue that the NH and its players are inferior to their Southern counterparts. Now, IF you had suggested that NZ rugby and its players are ahead of the REST of the world (and currently, in the AB's case - by some distance) then your argument would have had traction. But you didn't.

No MWO that's not insanity. It's hope and confidence.

Totally agree. I can see, especially after Giteau's injury, the NH clubs being quite belligerent about releasing their players. It's going to be like NZ RL back in the '80's when they'd get their players 2 days before a test if they weren't "injured'. What's worse, is the NH clubs have even more power over their players than the RL clubs. At least the players had to be "injured" for the RL clubs not to release them.

This should be fun. There are many reasons not to have the GL. I will give you the most important reason though. Let's see if you have the temperament to read and understand. How did your teams do in the Super Rugby this year? Not too good yeah? How was that crowd turnout in Sydney for the first Bledisloe cup? Despite how poor, it was still about 3 times your average crowd at SR games this year......Keep that in mind. We'll just use one position as an example, say 2/5 being your mate Giteaus position. There are 20 - 25 midfield backs competing for SR starting positions every week in Australia. These players play week in and week out in the SH's professional rugby competition. Regardless of what you think of it, the pasting the Chiefs gave Wales earlier this year should give you a good idea of the difference in standards. So, these 20 - 25 midfield backs playing every week get an offer from France for 2 x what they get in Australia. They say, "sorry mate, I'm chasing the Wallaby dream. I'm gonna play for Australia mate". Test match comes up and the ARU can't find a single player in Australia out of all those 20-25 players competing every freaking week. So they invoke the GL and some prick who's gone off to chase his fortune turns up to take the 2/5 position. All that effort and showing the selectors week in and week out what you've got in what is without doubt the toughest first class competition in the world. For what? Next time they get that offer, they'll say, "what loyalty to me has the ARU shown me? To hell with them, I'm taking the offer".......Nek minute..... You have 5th rate club players playing against international quality teams week in, week out and getting slaughtered. You have fans falling away in droves and cancelling their Foxtel subscriptions. Soon the sponsors stop supporting a comp with no supporters. Suddenly the ARU hasn't got an income. Fortunately they have the AB's in Sydney for the next 10 years. So they call in their pensioners from the European retirement village because their SR players aren't even up to SR, yet alone a test against the AB's. But wait, the clubs won't release them after the Giteau injury. They've invoked their own GL. After much negotiations and a hefty insurance premium, the clubs agree to release their players two days before the big test. And guess what? 25 years from now, we'll still have the Bledisloe cup and you won't even have a SR team. Good enough reason for you?

Apart from MWO, I am very impressed with the comments on this post.

It's like he walked up to him and kissed him on both Cheiks, isn't it?

moore is not there now , in tests. he shud take the Strauss example to heart and retire from tests. always better for long-time servants to go on thier own rather than be pushed out.

@ Shop : did u stop and think , just maybe genia is the only guy who is playing well in the tests is becoz he had hardly played in europe due to injury?

Goatee, I'm not Australian so you missed the mark I think. Having said that, the Wallabies whipped the poms in the one that mattered at the RWC and sent them into a deep dark hole. Only to be rescued by....you guessed it....an 'Australian'! Do you get the joke?

It's all very well having respect for Moore, but it is no excuse for retaining players past their used by dates. Ignoring the problem with the referee (because that can possibly be fixed), he is not up to snuff and at the point where the majority of internationals have retired or are considering doing so. The captain must command his spot in the team, be the undisputed best exponent in his position, otherwise you end up sacrificing skills for leadership. Todd Blackadder anyone?

Forget the questions over his leadership, i would drop him for form and that would be the end of that discussion. He was more valuable to the All Blacks then he was to the Wallabies.