Lions to unlock the All Blacks for England: Jones

The 1959 Lions arrived with much expectation also. Guess what happened to them? Ask DB if if he were still around.

EJ needs to look at some of the old Super 8 footage of three tests in 1959.

@ClarkeG Yeah, you're right. It was Bush (No.20) replacing McEldowney not the other way round. @ Ben Our scrum was certainly getting pushed back. The Lions had developed a very effective eight man shove. Having the very slight, very old Tane Norton at hooker cannot have helped the AB scrum very much. 1977 must have been the final year of the traditional hooker...the Lions approach was certainly the way forward (no pun intended).

were talking about the ABs here msn

The comment state " France can play" and implies England has never played unstructured, fluid, imaginative , breathtaking rugby.

Yeah, nobody should ever say that somebody or something is the best until theyve worked with every single one in the world. So as Peter says, nobody has ever had the right to have ever called anything the best...ever. Yes the quality of player matters, I trust youll remember that next time you blame any coach.

Lions has a great squad but Gatland is the weak link. With the squad quality at Wales he has had over 10 yrs most half decent coaches would've won a few 6N's. The same goes when 4 years ago the WBs were in a mini Deans-led disaster zone. Wales were found out a few years back in 6N and have changed/achieved nothing since 2013. Ex-Lions he has no SH away wins and a pathetic 3 home scalps. It has become a mental block for him. He has done players like North, Llewellyn Jones and Jenkins a dis-service. Howley is abysmal, Wales play worse when Gatland is on sabbatical. Borthwick is the one shining light, as I write he will be watching videos of AB's line-outs and it is an area Lions will dominate and use as their springboard. IMO Gatland was a lazy choice. Schmidt's odds of success would have been higher, especially with what is a fantastic squad.

The heading said it all, EJ could not care less about whether the Lions win in NZ , give me a leg up ,you ask the questions and I will take the answers. In fact , I wouldn't be surprised if EJ is half hoping the Lions lose their test matches , so he can have the ultimate crack at the ABs and all the glory is mine.

Gatland seems quite annoyed about Townsend not coming on Board. The implication is that Scottish Rugby blocked it.

For what it's worth guys Men in Blacks says McEldowney left the field to be replaced by Bush but the 3 man scrum was packed before Bush arrived on the field. And yes there was only one 3 man scrum.

Ok...dont remember that but do remember our scrum was getting owned bigtime......i think even iconic commentator Keith Quinn (whos commentary i remember)might have pushed that the ABs packed 3 on purpose to get a quick heel.

Yes I like that 10meter approach thing. A smart variation of the one offs, one ups just to secure any kind of forward momentum must mean the opposition are back peddling even if retreating slowly. Getting that initial momentum can snowball quickly, a bit also like how unstructured Touch rugby quickly demanded the first three plays were about catching the opposition back-pedalling, a must before breaking lose.

tman Absolutely..... If we think about what we've seen from the ABs over these past 9 seasons, the only plays across the paddock, that seem to be structured in their game are defence, kicking and their set-pieces. The key aspects that highlight the success of those plays, as you say, incorporates a total buy-in commitment to respond and the high level of skill to deliver, from all 23 players, on game-day. The defence and kicking tactics IMO, are designed to singularly, create errors in the opposition but I think more importantly, to allow the ABs a territorial advantage that they seek to use to smother their opponents into, causing an error. The set-piece line-out and scrums become effective when the ABs secure their own ball but, they become destructive when the ABs can upset or secure, their opponents ball. These are examples of what I think are the ABs only structured plays. It is rare that we see an ABs back-line move except the usual draw and pass, cut-out pass or inside passing moves.....I suggest the ABs are reliant upon getting the ball to either flank by draw and pass to create the openings, for the next ball-carrier to straighten, the play. It is all about making metres not dissimilar to NFL - make 10m in 4 plays - I'd watch the ABs on most occasions, make 10m in 4 ball-carries and the beauty is, every player has a buy-in, to what's happening. Then we see either Nugget or TJP or TKB, pop the ball up and over the ruck or scrum or line-out and all of a sudden, the 10m gain has multiplied three, sometimes four-fold. What we witness next is either the side turns up the heat through its defensive patterns to create or, the side has actually forced an error, that is quickly turned into an unstructured response involving all players in the immediate vicinity, of the ball. You are right - the ABs have structures in place to provide for an unstructured approach but, the biggest difference between them and their opponents IMO, is the total commitment and the skills to perform collectively and play, exactly what it is, that's in front of them.

Agree, I think a Jones, Schmidt alliance would have made a difference between winning and losing. They'll come here with the same Lions mentality...join together and dive it a go. Gatlands been so far removed from NZ rugby that he's now on the outside of it, looking in and has still never worked it out. Jones is in the best type of position...not nationally aligned with either side. This tour needs a strong English/ Irish influence and THAT will be interesting as Wales have tended to dominate Lions sides.

Ha ha I was a forth that year...

It gets worse- in '74 I didn't even own a radio so only found out about the results via the newspaper; I did at least have the benefit of a South African English teacher to wind up. Too young to really remember '71, except by reputation. The downside was until 1977, I thought it was normal for the NH to produce the best teams, which made the late 70s and 80s a bit of a shock. Like you, I'm as excited now as I was then.

@Ben "Later tests and our scrum being monstered so we put down just a front row to get the ball out fast…ridiculous." A popular myth. I was at the game at Eden Park in 1977. The ABs put down ONE and only ONE three-man-scrum. They did it because prop Bill Bush was injured and had to leave the field. In those days a doctor had to examine the injured player before a replacement was allowed...meanwhile the game kept going. Poor old Laurie Knight had to pack down in the front row. As it happens the ball was hooked fast and the AB nearly scored. The idiotic Stephen Jones is someone who pedalled this myth for years (even though he didn't cover the tour in NZ).

Have you watched most France games of the last five years???! Or indeed most Top 14 games? Both have been imagination and fluidity-free zones.

I'm not sure that end of season-itis constitutes a particularly valid excuse. England were at the end of their (equally long) season in June when they series-nilled Australia. Tbf, the Lions also usually perform well too after the same longueurs...they are all professionals, fitter than they've ever been, and should be expected to perform..

On the radio chaz....did they not show it on tv ...im assuming you were/are in britain? Yes that 77 team was as good as the 71 team. The pack was just so powerful. The 70s was a decade when british rugby was at its peak. That 77 tour rain seemed to follow them at every game...except the tests. Cant wait for 2017s version. I still feel like that 3rd former in 1977.......