Lions tour to 'improve England's depth'

HNY T-man ABs will get together two weeks before the first test so Highlanders likely to be short their ABs too is my current understanding. I would let the boys play, sticking a loss Or two on the Lions before the tests start could kill their tour before it starts.

I think whats also obvious, is of those contributing teams only one beat the all blacks. Only for that to be rectified two weeks later and may not happen again for awhile.Also the springboks and wallabies in a rebuilding phase and out of sorts contributing to they're success..your comparing pears and apples ?

You're absolutely correct. You're missing something.

Blues, Crusaders and Highlanders could field their All Blacks as they're two weeks before the first test, but haven't checked the Super draw. Chiefs and Canes are either side of the first test so they definitely won't. First and third tests at Eden park makes it tough alright so as overconfident as it sounds, have to agree with you...3-0. By the time the Lions hit the first test they will have been put through a lot.

The Lions play 11 matches in NZ and will lose all three tests. Then you have to predict how they will go in the other eight fixtures. You would think that at least two of the Canes/Crusaders/Chiefs/Highlanders games will be close so they could end up losing five of eleven.

Yes what didn't help with the 71 tour was the exodus of players from Fred Allens 65-69 side after Vidanovich took over and by 71 they just hadn't been replaced. 71-73 had some of the poorest AB sides where the NH had some of their strongest ever. By contrast look at the 69 Welsh side that thrashed all but France in the 5N and toured NZ contained all the legends that played in the 71 Lions side and were hammered by Lochores side in both tests. The Lions were too good, but the ABs were pretty poor as well, and they still only scraped in 2.5 to 1.5. That's why I rate 74 as the best side. The Boks were a pretty good side then and got beaten easily.

Well that makes it all clear. Thanks, I think.

Nz whitewash most teams that come to they're shores..

I love how the people predict the future, the 2005 squad man for man were a better team on paper. How many players in next years team hold as much regard as wilkinson,Bod, dallagio, jason robinson,o'gara, paul o'connell, neil back, will greenwood just to name a few. You do realise that out of your outstanding contributing teams only 15 can take the field, these players from different teams and expected to gell. Ok maybe i am silly, so were england in 2012 after beating the abs, it was the turning of the tide they thought.. one good year counts for nothing and they didn't play the best team. Got to love the enthusiasm coming out of the NH, dominate for a few years first before chest beating..

It's not four months off, Taylorman.

As someone who ha followed NZ Rugby since the late 60's I know that the Lions have a special significance in NZ Rugby. Everyone from players to supporters are up for these tours. The 'blending' of the various nations is so important. The English resurgence could actually work against the Lions as, particularly the Pom press will promote their players to the detriment of the other nations involved. That could cause problems. Depth will be so important in such a demanding tour. Form and injuries will have an effect. Really though from what I have seen depth should not be a problem. A well thought out playing strategy with players selected to fit those positions. That is why the 71 team won, they studied the tour in depth and had playing depth. They actually lost their two best Props from the tour before the first test. The only other change they made to the test team I remember was dropping John Bevan for David Duckham, not a bad replacement. The uncontrollable factor was not having many injuries after the Props was a big help. Also the incomparable Mike Gibson was in that team. Which ever way it goes it will be a hell of a tour, it always is. I just hope they don't adopt a seige mentality like 2005 where they based themselves in Auckland and didn't really 'tour'.

The four months is the period between the last Lions test and the November series. How is that baffling? Jones simply mentioned exhaustion where you interpret that to be a combination of injuries and/ or involvement in club play. I cant see how either can be translated as exhaustion. Am I missing something? I accept that Lions tours of NZ are about as tough as it gets, but I wouldnt expect a player to take four months to not be ready enough to play test rugby again. Perhaps a couple. But four? Can you explain that?

Possibly but until then all we can go on is form and the Lions in NZ are well known for underperforming. Look at that team in 05 and no way on earth would you expect that side to get not just beaten, but thrashed every test match. And your Carter scenario is correct but it is also more likely to come from a NZ situation. You dont keep hearing about all the NH sides "where do they keep getting these players from" so its ironic you use a NZ example to make your point. If anything the Super series is more likely to spurn a great player than the Lions are. And NZers were confident of NZ being as good in terms of the sides playing ability in 2017, you being a kiwi and all that. It was key leadership in certain areas like the Centers we had concerns about, and largely still do. We havent yet replaced the best centre pair, or Seven or captain but we are getting there. It was more overseas folk that thought we might br more beatable.

really and NZ white-washed them (the 2005 team)...a really good team

My point is that if you had said in 2002 that D.Carter would not only be considered the best 10 ever but one of the best players ever many would have said that was ridiculous. I think this squad has players like D.Carter in it. Players that will be considered great.

I wasnt born in 71 or 74. The Lions squad in 2001 was exceptional but let me make this point, the squad was made to look good in hindsight after accomplishments, as this one will be. Its like people were saying at the start of 2016 that the NZ team was going to be worse than 2015 because of NZ greats retiring. Its because people dont see that greats are coming through because they are not yet considered great. This generation of players has future greats like Itoje in it and imo he will be considered one of the greatest ever and this Lions squad will be too. It just so happens that this is arguably the best national team ever as their opponents. NZ 2-1.

I love it when people doubt how good a team is going to be. 2005? In 2004 the Lions contributing team were horrible. They won 13 from 33 against non-lions contributing teams. Just to show you how silly you are, in 2015 the Lions contributing teams won about 26 from 34 against non Lions contributing teams. So in 2004 they won about 35% and in 2016 they won about 70%. But they were a better bunch of players to choose from? I think thats wrong and f-ing obviously so. Eng did not lose last year. Ire beat the ABs. But we shall see.

Well I think thats pretty naive tbh.

Looking at What's 23, it looks close to what we'll expect give or take a player here or there and head to head I dont see them clearly ahead in any single position. The best players are Itoje, Billy V, Liam W and SOB in my opinion. If they play Farrell at 10 in a three test series here they won't have learnt from 2005 at all. He'll have the effect of strangling his own backline when he gets put under pressure, and they'll quickly revert to type, so easily done by Gatland, who I think after all these years having a go is already resigned in his own mind. How he will manage the team under the pressure they'll face will be interesting. However, the current trend is with the NH, where last year it wasn't, so it's a funny game. It might be a good thing for the game if the Lions win, but having seen the pressure build up over several Lions tours, hard to see. I mean POC actually took up smoking in 2005 he was that stressed.

England are about as deep as they can go, no big names coming through that would enhance this squad at the moment.