Lyon still best spinner in the country

Be careful, Chris- you're using facts like they actually mean something... Don't you know this is the age of #alternativefacts , where a hunch or the spoken/written word has more resonance than reality?

Somerville has outbowled SOK when they have played together, too. Do you drop SOK for Will...or do you keep the incumbent because he is in form? You keep the form incumbent. That's why Gaz has kept SOK out...good form.

Not a lot of Tests go into a fifth day. That's your major explanation. Lyon, however, has done it quite a bit.

You sound like the one feeling threatened, Basil. It's almost as if you didn't read Tim's response but just re-posted your previous one. There is no criticism of SOK. It is praise for Lyon. The whole article had a positive tone. How does that draw criticism?

Not so. Lyon did it way faster. C'mon Matt, tell us what it was about Trumble's style that you liked so much.

Lyon has done that stacks of times.

Sok is a better nickname than Gaarry. Actually the Gaarrry should be known as Kimba!

He wasn't before!

SOK aside, Lyon's biggest threat is a certain NSW off spinner who's taken 31 wickets in his last 6 shield games, and a 1st class total of 51 wickets@23.7, if he keeps that up, you could mount a case for Lyon not even being the best off spinner in NSW.

Gday Rob, given SOK's numbers, would he not be a walk up start in any other test team in the world? Most fast bowlers could only dream of a 24 average. Yet we have Lyon having a dream run with a 35 average! I would like to see Lehmann explain that. What could he say?

But why has Steven O'Keefe done so much better in the Shield than Lyon, if Lyon is so superior? O'Keefe's achievements have always been downgraded by people placing style over results. He has results that are unarguable. It's like Border over David Gower, for example. Gower was about the prettiest batsman on earth, but Border got results. Lyon is not our greatest ever off spinner. He has played more matches and therefore taken more wickets, but i think Hugh Trumble and Ashley Mallett would have claims just as strong if not more so.

Ah, I always knew MacGill was the better bowler then Warne hey Ronan? Test records in the sixteen matches they played together. Warne ......... 74 wickets at 29.6 MacGill ....... 82 wickets at 22.1

I like to think of Macgrath vs Lee, One plugs away relentlessly and takes wickets, the other looks good. Lyon is not without his strengths, he is a good attacking spinner particularly in the first innings, which undoubtly helped us set up wins, particuarly when we had Harris. His main weakness is his inability to bowl out sides in the fourth innings or bowl defensively. He seem to have really poor game awareness. His other drawback which is no fault of his own is that most of our promising no 6 batting all rounders are off spinners. Okeef on the other hand lacks Lyons penetration in the 1st innings, but his ability to bowl defensively allows him to build up pressure. Of course once the pitch takes turn he is on par with the best in the world, as he just demonstrated. Despite bowling on less than spin friendly Aussie pitches he actually has the best 1st class average of any spin bowler in the world. Going forward when we are likely to play another expensive strike bowler like Pattinson or Cummins then playing a second defensive bowler suits the team better. And we can strengthen the batting at the same time with Maxwell, Turner, Head at 6, Unless Jake Lehmann keeps rescuing South Australia every other innings!

"I loved seeing SOK clean up, but my concern is that it now puts him ahead of Nathan Lyon in the pecking order of spinners in this country." "Many are saying that Warne now has egg on his face, but the wickets are beside the point. I would agree that even when O’Keefe was ripping through India’s batsmen, he never really looked dangerous. He had a great match, and well done to him, but I hope “Nice Garry” will be the customary call from behind the stumps for a long time yet."

I do get that argument. But the truth is that in 90% of test matches Australia plays there is only a spot for a single spinner. So once this series is over and they return to Australia, there is only going to be one of these two in the team. The only true time you get to see them head to head is when they are playing together on the same team, so while they would be wanting to support each other and work together for the team, as with any team sport there is always the possibility that your mate who you are working with and supporting and all that could be the very one to replace you in the team. It's a very real thing that's always there, and is especially the case with spinners and wicket keepers, spinners there is usually only one spot available, keepers there only ever is. O'Keefe has performed year in, year out, better than any other spinner in the country, and whenever he's played test cricket alongside Lyon has outbowled him in those matches. If he continues to do that through this series then it should earn him the right to be the single spinner in the side heading into the Ashes. No matter how much people might like making a cult-hero out of Lyon.

So, you say that O'Keefe needs to play more tests in Australia and show he can take wickets there before you'd be convinced he really could be better than Lyon, but at the same time you'd deny him the chance of playing those tests by just deciding, against all evidence, that Lyon is the better bowler in Australian conditions and wouldn't give O'Keefe a chance to play those tests and show he has what it takes. Points in O'Keefe's favour: - In the tests he's played with Lyon he's outbowled him every time. - In the Sheffield Shield matches (all in Australian conditions!) he's played with Lyon he's outbowled him every time. - His overall first class record is way, way better than Lyon or anyone else in the country. Points in Lyon's favour: - People feel that because he imparts more spin on the ball he must be better even if he takes less wickets and concedes more runs in doing so.

I don't think it is in SOK's, Lyon's or Australia's interest to propagate a who's-the-leading-spinner debate. Better we let them just enjoy a successful partnership in India for the rest of the series, and worry about everything else later. Players of course read media articles - best we don't have these two feeling even more like they are competing for one spot, than they naturally already would be, by seeing their performances and relative merits being dissected by all and sundry. This is not having a go at your article, Tim. More at some of the former players suffering from relevance deprivation and needing to push their favourite players, and tear down those they don't favour.

An uncanny resemblance to their First Class averages .