Neil Henry won't deny he didn't want Jarryd Hayne

That's fine. We were talking specifically about his on field contributions. How long will the increased ticket sales last if Haynes form doesn't improve? How long do you sacrifice on field performance for a few extra throug the gate?

Hi TB, I think there is one statistic that shows Hayne's value: bums on seats. If you look at the average attendances going back a few years, in 2014, the average crowd was 13,194 per home game. But, if you exclude the local derby (Titans v Broncos) the average crowd was 12,530 (Broncos games have always been bigger sellers than any other game in the last 4 years). In 2015, average attendance was 11,236 (10,854 without the Broncos game). 2016 was 12,227 (up to Round 22, when Hayne debuted) and 11,244 if you exclude the Broncos game. Since Hayne has arrived the average attendance has been 15,136 (14,588 without the Broncos). That is up 2,909 tickets per game since Hayne landed. Or, 3,344 more tickets when we don't count the Broncos game. With tickets starting at about $25, and having played 13 home games, that equates to 37,815 more tickets, or, at least, $945,375 worth of ticket sales. And that isn't even including merchandise. So, although he may not be setting the world on fire with his play, he has definitely provided a million dollars worth of value...

I focused on the Storm,Shark wins because as the potential and reigning premiers they more than their other 4 victories,belie the assumption that they're 'going backwards ever since.also scalped top 8 sides (at the time) Dragons and Eels.. Google nrl stats.com won't list the telephone call Henry got from Archer apologizing for the 2 tries the Panthers were awarded gifting them the game,nor the nonsense that went on in last years Broncos playoff..but they'll both be in there as black and white losses that stats men will use to 'prove' that when all is said and done at the end of the day..Hayne,at 40%,how that figure alone without J Squishys roster figures can make any meaningful sense is beyond me....has put the club in regression...

Hurrell takes one of the first two hit ups every set and has been missed because the front rowers haven't stepped up to replace him

Souvalis, I have watched all their games since he joined except one, including the fiasco which was Saturday night. There is something out of balance when Hayne plays and whilst it may or may not be his fault the two halves seem to struggle with him on the field and their attack in the past two games was worse than the under 8's at half time. He also seems to believe he is a play maker, which he isn't. I personally see his forte as running and I think the only person who is a chance of being fooled by his regular dummy near the line is himself (if he doesn't kick. for himself). Defence of the team is awful and has been all year and whilst this is far from his fault there were a lot of long range tries on Saturday. His contract is up at the end of next year so he will have a good year in 2018 but at present he is not worth his reported 1.2 for this year. Last year however he paid for himself in Jersey sales

I'm not "going off". I've been trying to use objective data to support the subjective data that the Titans have gone backwards since signing Hayne. Your opinion is just as subjective as mine...but you talk about piles of beans, blaming pretty muc every player in the squad including Wallace and Proctor, disenchantment with the coach and suggesting that anyone criticising Hayne is picking on him. I've never suggested that Hayne is more than a part of the problem. I don't lay the losses solely at his feet. But he certainly should have been playing a lot better and a lot more consistently than he has been. You don't like the stats I'm presenting, but at least I'm looking at all the games. You keep coming back to their three best performances and ignoring everything else. In the first Cronulla win Hayne went ok but nothing more. In the win against Melbourne Hayne played centre and was shown up terribly in defence by Chambers and in the second Cronulla win Hayne was very quiet and the game was basically won by Ash Taylor with two tries and a couple of try assists. So in their three big wins you keep coming back to, Hayne was quiet at best and you're ignoring the rest of the season. I have nothing against Hayne. I spent a lot of time here defending his move to the US and defending it as a success and him having a crack at the Fijian rugby 7s. But as one of the marquee and highest paid players in the comp he has been massively disappointing. Yes, I agree thee are a lot of team factors but you pay someone a million bucks to lead the way and drive the team and he's been found wanting. I don't know that thee can be any other conclusion.

One question Barry...How many of those Titan games have you actually watched ? I mean not just the Fox News 1 minute highlight that you used recently to totally misunderstand a captains comment..but,you know,the whole 80 ? Before you went off did you in any way try to process what Mr Squishy so eloquently tried to explain about player numbers used this year ? Without doubt he's not going well..undeniable..but it's pretty easy for defenses to load up on him with zero other attacking dangers anywhere in the three quarter line... After they belted the premiers a month or so ago,Gallen said he believed they were a serious football side...got no idea what's happened since then..other than Hurrell and Proctor and Paasis ongoing injuries... Just think that there are many TEAM factors contributing to their past few weeks of which Hayne is but one part...

Haynes first game with the Titans was Round 22 against the Warriors. After round 21 they were in 7th spot. After Hayne signed they won 2 of 6 games and finished 8th. This year they're in 14th. How is that not going backwards? Hayne has been signed as a million dollar player but isn't delivering anywhere near a million bucks worth of value on field. If you have one player (4% of the squad) taking up over 14% of the salary cap and not delivering anywhere near that sort of value, how is that not sending the team backwards...it's certainly not driving them forwards?

When the Titans signed Hayne, I commented it will send them backwards. It was a decision to try and attract sponsors and supporters - at the expense of the team and culture, both of which were in the early stages of development. Now the team is losing, sponsors are leaving, crowds down and the culture becoming toxic. It is not Hayne's fault - the club has been riddled with controversy for a number of years, and sporting teams on the Gold Coast have always struggled.

Its more the signing of Hayne as opposed to his form, it's totally upset the balance, when Hayne plays it looks like Taylor relies on him via reputation and isn't taking charge as he does when Haynes not there, too big an ego for that playing group me thinks.

Definitely agree about the loss of Hurrell. He has been outstanding for the Titans and close to the line near unstoppable. Also takes a lot of the hard carries early in the set to get them rolling. Proctor really helps the defensive side of things and when he's out their defensive line is just not the same. I also agree on Elgey, wasn't sold on him previously and a full season and he hasn't stepped up, I think Roberts has been far more effective and Taylor has a lot more upside to his game.

No, it's not the point..the original position was a poster believed the Titans have gone backwards since Hayne arrived..zero to do with whether he's worth a million or not..in the same season he arrived they were controversially defeated in the play offs..the entire side played out of their skins....the belief of another poster that they've done nothing since he entered was countered with a points bonanza against this years premiership favorites and 2 convincing wins against the current premiers...and your addition is 'is he worth a million ? No or You're kidding yourself?....That's the difficulty I'm dealing with...

Hey MrJ Why is it not fair to go back to the start of last season? Hayne played for them in the latter part of the season so the Titans form in the first half of the season without him is entirely relevant to this discussion about whether he has improved that team. I could understand it if I was going back three seasons, but last year is very relevant. Of course Hayne is not responsible for every loss nor do they win because he's not on the field. But I think it's telling that their win record is no better with him than without him. Yes, the Titans have had injury problems. But their performance with or without Hayne is relative. They've had injuries with or without him. Without checking the data on this I'd suggest that Hayne was injured this season when the Titans injury crisis was at its worst and has come back as they've started getting more troops back. But at the end of the day we can make stats say anything we want. The simple question is has Jarryd Hayne delivered $1M+ of value this season? No stat either of us can manipulate will show he even remotely has.

At the end of the day, forget how many games have been won or lost with or without Hayne if it causes you that much difficulty. Have Haynes performances this season justified a one million dollar (plus) pay cheque? Even remotely? If your answer is no, well that's the point. If your answer is yes, then you're kidding yourself.

Pretty sure the Cowboys have won more than they've lost since JT went down or is that cherry picking...

I can understand what you're saying TB (re what a $1M player should be contributing), but, there is far more to it than simple statistics. And it's not really fair to go back to the beginning of 2016 when Hayne only debuted for the Titans in round 22. Since he has been at the Gold Coast, the Titans have (as you said) won 8 from 20 with Hayne, but without him (in that time) they have won 1 from 6 - rd 3 against the Eels, who didn't have Moses yet and Norman was out). So, 40% vs 16.7% is a marked improvement. On top of that you need to consider who they lost to. I consider 6 of the 12 losses that the Titans have had since Hayne arrived would have almost been expected anyway: 2 losses to the Cowboys, 2 losses to the Broncos and 1 loss to both the Roosters and the Sea Eagles. The Titans at full strength are no better than a 7th to 10th placed team, so losing to top 4-6 placed teams would be likely anyway. Along with all that, the injuries (& team changes) at the Titans have been immense. Their round 1 team in 2017 compared to the team that lost first week of the finals in 2016 had 11 changes! 6 more in rd 2, 8 in rd 3, 7 in rd 4, 5 in rd 5 & 11 in rd 6...it just keeps going! In fact, in the 25 games since Hayne debuted there have been a total of 134 changes to the starting line up (from week to week). That is an average of over 5 positional/player changes per week. I don't think any one player is going to make that much difference to a team that is basically drawn out of a hat every Wednesday. I think this whole "story" is nothing more than journalists having a quiet week and trying to drudge something up. I can't remember who mentioned it, but someone said that Henry likes to have a fairly even team (not superstars mixed with nuffy's) so he could probably argue that the lack of decent replacements is contributing to the poor performances anyway. Some of the better players the Titans have are castaways from other poor clubs. Roberts, Copley, Zillman. Which says alot...

You can't cherry pick two games out of a season in which they're coming third last to suggest that they're playing as good as they were in a season they made the top 8 in. Anyway, I'm not having a go at Hayne here, just highlighting that the impact of his signing hasn't been all that positive for the team dynamic. Prior to his signing the titans had a complete spine that was combining well and then with a couple weeks left before finals Hayne was signed and Henry was forced to fit a guy that hadn't played league in two years into the squad which undid a lot of the combinations that had been built up over the season. It shouldn't be surprising that it didn't have a great effect on their performances, you throw any player into an already complete team at the back end of a season and its not going to go well. The fact he's switched between centre and fullback this season shows that they're still trying to figure out his fit into the team, and naming him at center in the first place suggests that they prefer Roberts at fullback, but Haynes vulnerabilities at centre meant that wasn't a long term option and his price tag prevents him from being dropped or moved to the wing. Haynes form isn't going to improve if he keeps getting moved around or if he has to play to systems and tactics developed around another player. It hasn't been a successful venture for either party.

I have always put on the record that I have never rated Hayne as a genuine superstar of the game. I am happy to admit that on his day, in attack, he can be the one of the best players in the NRL. Literally. But his lack of ball handling and his rugby league “intelligence” has always been his weakness, which I feel (I have put on the record too) that upon his return most of the smartest coaches figured out the best way to play him “out” the game. Some people see this as laziness on Hayne’s behalf. I only think that this is half-truth. I don’t think he is lazy as people make him out to be. I just don’t think he has football intelligence to adapt to whatever is happening in front of him. His positional play is a good example of this. I don’t think Hayne’s positioning is lazy, I just feel like under fatigue, he usually is not where he needs to be. That’s not laziness, its – football smarts. Some people have it. Thurston/Smith have it spades. Some people don’t. I would argue someone like Paul Gallen is the same, but his work ethic makes up for his deficiency. Whereas Hayne’s work ethic doesn’t. I also feel some of the problems that he has with the Titans may be down to the fact that his style of play doesn’t quite suit how Neil Henry structures his teams. Henry’s style is focused heavily on playing the middle third of the field, building pressure by playing the corners and playing laterally inside the opposition twenty with long sweeping ball movement. That style doesn’t suit Hayne as he cant feed of an unstructured retreating defence down the middle (either through a quick play the ball or an offload) and because his ball movement is not great, he is used more as ball runner with size rather than natural third half (like a Darius Boyd). Henry tends to rein in the freestyle type of play, and doesn’t really give the chance for Hayne to get early ball. The best comparison I can make to where I have seen this before is in the later half of Matty Bowen’s career at the Cowboys. Take the bad knees out of the equation, Henry tended to rein in the ad lib nature of Bowens game for a more structured play. Now Bowen could easily adjust because he essentially became a third half (becoming a danger as he could beat the line, distribute the ball or become the fifth tackle option). But its not Hayne’s natural game and when he has to make a judgement call, his play seems rushed. This is probably a good reflection of The Barry's statistic of why the Titans have a better record without Hayne in the team. I don’t think it’s necessarily all Hayne’s fault, nor completely Henry’s either. Henry didn’t want him, not because he isn’t a good player. He just doesn’t fit Henry’s structure.

Nope,haven't played the same since...except for putting 38 on the Storm and 30 on the Sharks...pay attention and leave your baggage at the door Can't begin to fathom the vicious posse mentality of people...line them up and go after them boys..Gallen,Bird,Hayne.. same mob will be telling us soon that it's Robbie Farrah's fault for the Rabbitohs '17...its just poor use of statistics...what's Dane Gagai win/loss with and without him at the Knights ? Goodness...

The Cowboys were up and down with Henry, but overall they were a pretty good team when he was in charge.