Rushing a second division would be a disaster for football

For those who believe a professional 2nd tier can't work, it's worth taking a look at the grand final crowds for the AFL state comps played on the weekend (the AFL 2nd tier): SANFL: Port Adelaide vs Sturt: 39,813 WAFL: Peel vs Subiaco: 18,180 VFL: Port Melbourne vs Richmond II: 17,159 This shows what's possible from a 2nd division.

Interesting to note the LiveStream is via the NPL website using the Youtube platform, and the NPL website is now included on the FFA's website listed as part of the FFA's portfolio of Competitions, which includes: - Aleague - Wleague - Youth League - FFA Cup There's even an - F-League: National Futsal League - one comp for Men & one for Women, which I only just noticed!

Massive day for football in Australia today with the Semi Finals of the NPL National Championships. Heidelberg Utd vs APIA Leichardt Kick off: 1:00 p.m. Edgeworth Eagles vs Brisbane Strikers Kick off: 4:00 p.m. When the National 2nd Division commences (most likely next year) we'll probably see all these 4 teams involved. LiveStreaming for both matches today http://www.nationalpremierleagues.com.au/article/watch-live-ps4-npl-finals-series-semi-finals/15aw87fksq3w51bzhd9gckjr1x

Waz - "resulted in average crowds falling last year" Let me put a counter argument to that statement. Last season we had an extraordinary occurrence at the top of the table when ,with weeks to go, it was evident that Sydney FC were going to win the comp, quite easily. The other "best" supported teams all suffered accordingly with Melbourne Victory averaging only 16,500 to their last 3 home matches. Compare this figure to their season long average of 21,500. (15,000 has just been wiped off the season's total. Your team Roar averaged 11,000 over their last 3 home games against their season long average of nearly 14,000. (Another 9000 wiped off the season's overall total). WSW played their last 4 home games in front of a 4 match average crowd of 11,000 against their season long average of nearly 18,000 (another 28,000 wiped off the season's total In that simple exercise we have gone to three clubs and wiped 52,000 off the overall season's total. Across 135 games that explains a "fall" on overall average of 385. per game. As you are aware the difference in overall attendance over the last 2 seasons shows a reduction in Season 16/17 of 17 per match (16/17 12,293 - 15/16 12,310) Hope this clarifies your statement somewhat. Cheers jb.

pacman - It should never be forgotten, or ignored. In 1977 it cost $50,000 to enter the NSL. In 2004 it cost $5 millions to enter the HAL. That not so small discrepancy would have "blocked the way" for a lot of the existing former NSL clubs. In this column the "theme" goes on to discuss costs and how they are arrived at. Upon discussion with a friend "close to the coalface" the following figures were cited. Today, when the Socceroos travel to local traIning camps here in Oz, there are 23 players involved and about 30 "ancillary ' staff. Explain that anomaly away to any qualified accountant. Cheers jb.

Some good points, Matt that actually adds to this discussion; rather than the usual negativity from some. However, many of your points relate to Promotion/Relegation, which is a completely separate discussion to a National 2nd Division. Right now, the AAFC is just focused on creating a National 2nd Division. They want to lift the standard for the 2nd Tier of football in Australia. And, it makes sense. If we put the 14 strongest teams from the NPL across Australia in one league & have them competing against each other, the standard of the NPL will lift dramatically. In relation to your points: 1) In the EPL, teams that are relegated continue to receive a small portion of the TV money for 2 more seasons (3 seasons if they were in the EPL for more than 1 season before being relegated) 2) If the players are semi-pro, they'll already be studying, or working. 3) Midweek matches are a very useful concept. Never thought of that. The only problem I see would be the players would then have to be full-time professional 4) Agree 5) I hope both ALeague & Aleague Div 2 are independent of don't get any help from FFA 6) Pretty sure all professional contracts in Pro/Rel competitions would contain this clause. I can't imagine Leo Messi playing 2nd Division Spain if Barcelona were to be relegated.

Yep you will also get alot more investment in football. Not every rich guy has enough time or cash to run an An A-League team, BUT a 2nd division team purchase or 3rd division for financially less cash would give an investor time and drive to slowly build a football empire rather than trying to build one from scratch right away.

I agree its completely feasible. The only main issues are, 1. If a current A-League team gets relegated certain financial help may be needed to try and help them. 2. Id want to address the larger number of Div 2 players who may never make the A-League and as a result enforce that every division 2 player under 23 yrs old must study part time. 3. Midweek games for the most part so viewers can watch the games without impacting on A-League viewer numbers. Id actually want Fox Sports to implement a Football only channel. 4. For the first 4 years of the 2nd division, the founding A-League 10 teams cant be relegated but 2 are promoted from the 2nd division, they only stay in the A-League if they avoid the bottom 2 spots in the league, if they fall in one of those spots they go back down and another team or 2 come up. If they avoid the bottom 2 during those years they stay up and no 2nd Division team gets promoted. (Or if feeling generous 2 more get promoted and there are now four 2nd div teams in the A-League and the above rules of 2 going down still apply) 5. Promoted teams get 1 years salary cap help from FFA 6. Marquee signings for promoted teams must have a relegation release clause included in the contract. Thats all i can think of for now.

"Is it really that unrealistic to expect that a league, second division or not, in a bigger country, with more teams, might need, say 5 people, and that the cost might be, say $5 million?" Yes. It is really unrealistic for the sort of competition being suggested. The obvious thing to do would be to use admin from State Federations. The additional work required to administer a 14 team competition would not require more than 2 FTEs across the 8 State Federations that will likely be involved with the National 2nd Division. You go on about "bigger country". Can you please explain why admin costs have anything to do with "bigger country". Yes. Travel costs will be driven by geography, but geographical spread will have ZERO impact on central admin costs for an office that is creating a fixture, assigning match officials & involved with disciplinary procedures.

Waz - think about it. You just said the SPL administration cost $2 million. Then, either they're paying way too much for their 2 or 3 people, or there are other costs involved. Which of course there are - office space, travel, insurance, IT, telephones, etc etc. Is it really that unrealistic to expect that a league, second division or not, in a bigger country, with more teams, might need, say 5 people, and that the cost might be, say $5 million?

That would be the Tom Kalas who said he'd like the second division to go ahead next year, but wasn't sure that it was ready, and that it could take longer? That they didn't want to repeat the mistakes of the NSL era? That Tom Kalas? Sure.

"Like I said: why don’t you get in touch with the AAFC" I am in regular touch with AAFC via social media & email. I've had several exchanges with Tom Kalas who is a Victorian representative of AAFC.

Like I said: why don't you get in touch with the AAFC and ask them why they're costing figures are wrong, and why they're working on a "we've got one chance to get this right" model instead of just blasting ahead with what they have today.

Bottom line is, it wont happen.

"I didn’t though say football was unique in providing development pathways" Actually, that is what you said. Or, what I understood you to say. "Football is unique in modern sport in that it traditionally has a pyramid system that allows clubs and players to find their level". That's what I disagreed with: there's nothing unique about a pyramid system for players. I agree that the issue of a second division is separate (though related) to the issue of promotion/relegation. I'm personally not convinced that semi pro teams can operate within a national competition in a country as big as this one, and as scarcely populated, and still keep their financial heads above water, but that's the model the AAFC is working on, and I'm interested in what they produce. If it makes fiscal sense, absolutely, go for it. If it doesn't, back to the drawing board. I don't think this is an occasion for a "Hail Mary" pass and hoping it all works out: the numbers have to be there.

Send the AAFC a message via email or Twitter & they'll get back to you. I've been told the National 2nd Div is ready to operate tomorrow at the most basic level. The AAFC is doing work to see what is the best operating model. Maybe, it will be a basic level model. Maybe it will be more advanced. But, the basic model is ready to operate tomorrow.

Why can't we just have what we have now? Sure it is romantic to have a British style pyramid of leagues but England is half the size of Victoria. You can get around the country in a morning by train, bus or car. You can walk to a lot of club grounds in London or Manchester to give you an idea of their proximity to each other. We have designed a geographical representation league above the before tried and failed ethnic social club model. The NSL was obviously a complete failure in its early years but because of the bloody mindedness of its loyal fans and the constant churn of clubs coming and going. Which tv company is going to pay for a 2nd league when they can barely cover wages of what we have now. Nine clubs in Australia. One more thing, the successful European clubs never go below half way down the table. Only the bottom clubs come and go.

Talking to people at NPL clubs is still not "fact." It's opinion. Neither is "common sense" fact - not that I think that's in the equation here. Where are the millions required to develop the second division? I dunno. The PFA says they're required, and the AAFC simply thinks fewer millions are required than the PFA thinks, but they're still talking millions. And the AAFC is still working on its model so I doubt they've actually said the NPL is ready right now. Maybe you should read back on some of your own comments, because you're starting to contradict yourself. In any case, don't argue with me: go tell them they're wrong.

"look to 18 or 20 teams" Are you being serious, or having a laugh? Assuming a 34-38 match season (18 teams, or 20 teams) after about the midpoint of the season, it will be obvious there that 50% of teams that cannot win the title, nor can they finish in the ACL spots. So, what possible incentive would there be for them to keep playing competitively? If there is no threat of relegation, I don't want more than 10-12 teams. At least with 10-12 teams, every team has some chance of an ACL spot via the knock out finals.

Thanks jb. From time to time I visit the site you mention. I am not familiar with the era you refer to, but a little research reveals that the ASF, in its wisdom, decided to increase the top tier by 50% (from 16 to 24 teams), and split the tier into two conferences, North & South. As you mention, the Northern Conference was Sydney, together with Newcastle, Wollongong and Canberra. The Southern Conference consisted of eight teams from Melbourne, two from Adelaide, and wait for it, although I know you are aware, two from Brisbane! This was a recipe for disaster. Expand by 50%? Place the two northernmost clubs in the Southern Conference? What on earth was the medication the authors of such a bizarre plan were taking? As you so rightly state,"Once again we can learn from recent history.". I believe this ludicrous plan failed on two counts, namely an inordinate expansion programme, and the failure to comprehend Conference logistics. Of course, all this occurred over 30 years ago. Many regional centres have experienced considerable growth in the intervening years. so Wollongong and Canberra would possibly meet the criteria required to engage in top tier football. The former because of its football history, and the latter? Not sure. Sometimes I think Canberra is similar to Gold Coast - plenty of good players, few if any of whom moved to those locations for the sole purpose of playing football. For them, football is secondary. As far as Conferences are concerned, a Northern Conference would consist of Queensland and NSW (with the exception of the southern areas such as the Riverina and Murray River centres. These would join a Southern Conference, along with teams from Victoria, SA, WA & Tas. A League is not Conference ready, but a second division? As I stated in my earlier post, "The cost benefits are glaringly obvious.". Cheers.