The league table is the only metric that counts

Added to that there are rumblings from the EPL owners (albeit faint) of the Premier League dispensing with the inconvenience of automatic promotion and relegation.

And of course the adherents of the P/R Cargo Cult never actually explain where the money is coming from.

IIRC correctly some second tier clubs lived in terror of being promoted to the old NSL.

Pacman obviously there needs to be financial assistance given to a newly promoted team. Some state league teams have facilities. Wolves, Olympic, South Melbourne. It doesn't mean all teams need to have things in place. If and when they win promotion (5 years? 100 years?) they would need to meet certain requirements. There have been a number of bids and expressions of interest from both state league clubs and consortiums to join the league. Only a few will succeed. Promotion and relegation changes the dynamics. Potential investment otherwise gone to new bids could instead be directed towards a state league team in proximity..If a key regional area like Wollongong fails with a future bid, at least some backers will be looking at the next best option, the wolves, as a way for the region to gain entry. This will help drive a competitive underbelly.

Mall top, find me one team that has the financial and administrative ability to compete in the A-League, let alone, and I quote you: "... what if there were a half-dozen smaller teams fighting for promotion?" Let's be realistic, there is not one club in Australia that is ready or able to jump into the A-League. Lack of finance, lack of facilities, lack of acumen, and on it goes. And we haven't even addressed the quality of players at each of these "half-dozen smaller teams". Let's face it, each country has unique football challenges, and what works in one country will, quite probably, not work in any other country.

exactly! as my other comment, this is what will drive interest, attendances, excitement in lower leagues. The incentive for the club to be promoted!!! I can't see how we need a heap of investment for this to happen. All that needs is some financial incentive for newly promoted teams to put towards their squads. If a promoted team can only house a few thousand at a game well that's the way it is! naturally over team in the top tier small teams could invest more to facilities etc.

"in countries with less going for them than Australia". You are right. Take Finland. About a quarter of Australia's population. Attendances and commercial input is less than the A-league.Yet, it has a series of "INTERCONNECTED" leagues. Smaller teams have incentive to reach the top, with the possibility of a lucrative champions league qualification playoff. Makes a competitive environment for the whole league system! There is no doubt this is the way Australian football needs to go. We don't have Europe, but still Asian qualification is an incentive. Problem is, the A-league is maybe more interested in forming some new teams which can create the next big derby craze and keep attendances boosted. Sure, I hear the critics say if relegation became a reality and a big team got dropped their finances will suffer... but what about the positives? what if there were a half-dozen smaller teams fighting for promotion, bringing in attendances to regional cities and connecting with their local community? For every team relegated their might be more than one success created!

Rick, exactly what i mean i don't talk about the AFL, hence was not baiting you, I was trying to make a point because this what you do about the A-league. I don't choose to discuss with you anything about local football like P/R, because like I said to many of mates who follow O/S leagues but not the A-League. The only way to make football in this country to be elite, you need to start watching & supporting the local leagues now, because without money, sponsorship, media & mass attention you can forget about P/R, let alone win the World cup. You remind of that guy who complains about the committee, whether it be a sporting club, school, as matter of fact, anything, 'they should be doing this, they should be doing that', but when asked to join the committee, you don't have the time. The best way to make football elite is not discuss, but take action, like watching the local game.

Um ... yeah. I think I might have told you this already, but if I haven't, there really is no point trying to bait me with your little AFL lines. Secondly, how many times have you seen me actively pursue and annoy anyone on this site with my comments? I'll give you the answer to that: zero! People come to chat with me, not the other way around. I'm happy to chat away, and if someone wants to get hot-headed, I'm happy to return fire. You don't see me commenting on Middy's or Fuss' opinion now do you?, yet you quite often see them commenting on mine, despite not reading my comments. It's called a lack of discipline. Any normal person just ignores people they have no interest in. So these two either a) lack discipline, b) value what I have to say, c) feel threatened by what I have to say or d) all of the above. I'd suggest it's d. I'll also remind you to stop reminding me of what I like to chat about. "don’t write on anything on something you don’t like, it’s not good for the soul." The irony of this comment is first class. I'd say a large percentage of your comments are directed at people who come here to deliberately bait others. It's not something you must enjoy yet you comment anyway. Take my advice by just ignoring the people who talk rubbish. Now if you want to chat about my original comments, and not digress into AFL trash-talk (which we both know I'm never going to engage in), then I'm happy to have an adult conversation with you as to why P/R will not work anytime soon. I'm also happy to chat with you about how this would drastically effect our ability to win the World Cup, which I can assure you, I'm very interested in. This is the primary reason I chat on this forum — providing ideas to better elite football in this country, which one day I may watch.

Very easy Rick, don't write on anything on something you don't like, it's not good for the soul. You don't see me writing on how Australia's premier competition could not even draw 20K in Australia's premier city for one of the biggest games of the season, even Spurs drew a bigger crowd in a friendly, a team that has not won the EPL for 55 years. Or on how the Chinese are so totally disillusioned that after the AFL discovered professional sport in China, they left without any promise of more. Nor do I comment on how only after 150 years on men's Aussies Rules, do they think that maybe women might want to play. I don't write articles because I care little & happy to allow others to dream big.

"just little credibility as you don’t like it nor watch it" Would you prefer it if I wrote coupon articles about advertising strategies that will never eventuate or digital streaming to the masses that won't occur for another 3-5 years (when the next Tv rights present). Would you prefer it if I made poor predictions about the current Tv rights, unlike myself who predicted it very accurately i.e. near exactly the same as the AFL model. Would you like me to write garbage like Middy has above with regards to engaging all the football playing folk, when in reality a vast majority of people watching the A-League and AFL are lazy sods who don't engage in anyway with the sport. Unless of course you actually think all those RBB members are actually playing the game, instead of robbing grocery stores, mugging people and stocking up on flares. What part of my original comments do you find so hard to believe just out of curiosity?

I read your notes Rick, I find you funny. I was ecstatic about your first sentence, 'the AFL season is over', I get all my AFL news from you AFL guys on the football tab in the Roar. I was a Richmond fan before the Swans became Sydney's team. I watched my 1/4 of game on Sat , my AFL quota for the season, that tattooed guy looks good. Plus I get my EPL news from you & another friend, who like is misguided & thinks the EPL is the best & is a Liverpool fan who has now won the premiership for 28 years. I just laugh when you both tell me it's a more competitive, I'd laugh to see what a Neymar or Suarez would do to a Stoke side. Just when you talk A-league or football locally, bit like me talking AFL, just little credibility as you don't like it nor watch it. You really lose me.

Rick We will never agree on what I am saying... so lets leave it there ...

David, you will notice that some posters are impatient. They want a national 2nd division now! This will create a higher level competition than will State Conferences. How true! Thing is, no information is forthcoming on how a national 2nd division will be financed. A distinct plan needs to be formulated and presented! It is childish in the extreme to simply demand that a national 2nd division be created, without presenting a sound, financially responsible case explaining how such a wish can be financially sustainable. Earlier, one poster suggested that proponents of a second division with pro/rel provide figures on how this could be achieved. Immediately, a responder asked for figures to be provided illustrating how this could not be achieved! What? Do you go to your banker for a loan, and ask him/her to prove why your request is unsustainable? The other way around when I was a banker. Cheers.

Yeah ... I think you've been hanging around with Fuss too much. I thought you'd mention those stats, just like he keeps pedalling. Let me give you my area of expertise now. Most people are lazy, overweight and expect someone like me to fix all their problems when they're half dead. They don't play sport - they sit on their lounge and watch it. What's my point? You're targeting the wrong people because they aren't the vast majority with all the money. You know ... the people who buy all the booze and gamble their money away ... the ones all those advertisers target ... the ones who don't exactly fit the sporting profile. Think about it: Why would you want to target football folk when they make up such a small percentage of the overall community? Even if football made it to 86%, like the AFL (which is probably a made-up stat, but I don't care and here's why), it still would constitute a f@$kall increase in viewing numbers, just like it constitutes a small percentage of AFL fans. I hate to burst your bubble like this, but football is just plain football. It's nothing special in the overall scheme of things. A vast majority around the world don't give a @#@$ about it, nor do they play it. Most Australian's don't give a #@$% about AFL, nor do they play it. However, the AFL is infinitely better at engaging more lazy a#r@holes to their elite competition than the FFA does to theirs. Now when you both wake up to this fact, you'll realise why you always read my posts, despite claiming you never do. Have a nice evening.

Not that I want to breakup this stellar conversation, but how on earth have you connected esport to the rise of football and demise of AFL?

Nem Brilliant news

Rick Football in Australia at the professional level be it NSL or FFA have / has never connected in a meaningful manner with its player base. In the Whole of Football report I think 2014 maybe 2015 FFA identified that of the playing base only 18% watched the A-League and Football ... whereas the other codes the average was around 86%. My guess is Football has increased its reach from 18% to maybe 20% today... still well below other codes.... To get the connection and get the playing base to watch is not easy but its starting to happen and we do have working examples in Australia when people have done so. But to put this into a more logical framework for you. Say the average Football team has 16 players ... 11 plus subs for injuries and holidays etc... Right now we have say 20% of the 16 players watching and I assume talking about the A-League... 20% of 16 or say 15 players is 3 players which is not enough to cause a cultural behavioural shift in watching patterns and water cooler conversations... however lift that % to say 30% and you have between 5 & 6 players talking and very often model makers will tell you there is a tipping point in cultural behavioural patterns when people do not want to get left behind and become part of the new thing whatever that thing is... so the 30% can quite quickly become 60% ... What the trigger point is I have no idea and where we are on the player / viewer index I have no idea neither... but what I do know is when we reach it ... the growth will be relatively rapid. Whether you believe in business financial models and how they often inter-react with cultural behavioural models is your call.... my training and work experience often requires me working with such models often working in a team building some models ... so I hold great faith in how these things work ...

Middy, not sure if you've heard but Adam Peacock has just announced ALeague will be broadcast on Channel 501 this season. This could potentially add another 10-20% viewing purely from hotels, pubs & clubs which didn't have Ch505 or refused to change to 505 when people asked to watch ALeague in pubs.

Run me through this connection. I'm not following? What are your reasons for football not already connecting to the professional level? Football already is connected at the professional level in my opinion. The product at the top needs to change drastically. Linking it with a P/R system will not change this when it comes to an engaging form of entertainment to the masses nationally.