Ireland and England: Lions recovery and player management (helping Ireland win the Grand Slam?)

Gordon Brown was a perfect example of a player who benefited from a lengthy Lions tour because he couldn't avoid training, and the heavy schedule improved his match fitness. It's even noted in his wikipedia entry. Scottish fans were rueful that he couldn't show the same commitment to get himself into similar shape for his national side. There's no player today who benefits in a similar way from a Lions tour. The Tour can still make reputations, though. Former Scotland lock Jim Hamilton points out that Alex Corbisiero is highly rated on the back of two Test matches against Australia in 2013. The prop hardly had any international career to speak of, playing only 20 Tests before taking a sabbatical, and eventually retiring. Nevertheless, fans remember Corbisiero fondly. He's also an example of how, for a fragile player, the club and international demands are untenable if not managed together. He says now that he was probably capable of playing no more than 23 games in a season, so could never be the asset to his clubs that they would have wanted. Sam Warburton is also highly decorated at international level but invisible at club level.He has long absences at Cardiff, and has never won anything of note in the league or Europe. He hasn't just missed games through injury, he has been deliberately stood down to keep him in cotton wool for Test matches. This does not impress Cardiff supporters. There's no comparison between the workload rugby players had in the amateur era and the professional era. Only recently, Wayne Pivac said that he was seeing player injuries which reminded him of impacts he saw in traffic accidents as a policeman in New Zealand. An RFU report on injuries this week made grim reading. Some are starting to wonder whether we are letting down a whole generation of players, with health consequences we'll only realize in the years to come. Sure, I'd like player workload to be addressed so England players can get a clearer shot at the big prize. However, my main concern is that the sport establishes a firm foundation so that all levels can prosper.

Weve got both in terms of our conference but part of the reason for that is also due to the NH clubs, England and France in the main. That is why its a good thing for those two teams to suffer as well, because thats the most likeliest reason theyll do something. Clubs clearly dont care what theyre doing to the SH3, so England coming fifth should be celebrated by all, including the English, as it finally highlights what weve been saying for years. Its now costing you the results, its been costing oz and SA for 2-3 years now. It makes the English success in oz a hollow victory as well as the NH wins over those sides recently.

The GordonnBrowns and Mike Gibsons would be laughing...

I've always said the situation is entirely of our own making, Jacko, and I've been concerned about it for some time. I'm just pleased more people are finally acknowledging that elite England players do have a heavier workload than other nations (French players may have it worse, mind you). Whenever I've raised the point in the past, it's generally been greeted with disbelief, or written off as irrelevant (in England too) You'd think that English clubs could have rested more players but the injury crisis was unprecedented this year. Many second team matches were cancelled, because clubs just didn't have the players. You might have seen a lot of early season commentary putting the blame on the new laws but the jury is still out on that. Nevertheless, I think club coaches should have kept their Lions players out of the front line. Not for the sake of England, but for the welfare of the players themselves. The coaches are under pressure for performance, however, and they often look after their interests first. Northampton's head coach was sacked in December, and that's not the first time a Premiership coach has lost his job mid-season. Everyone who plays in the English league will tell you there are no easy games any more. It's one of the selling points for the league, and one of the reasons it generates good TV revenue. It's been a dogfight this year, which has made Directors even more cautious about sending out less than their best. In the Pro14, on the other hand, two of the top teams, Leinster and Scarlets, faced each other this season without many of their star players. Leinster could become European champions this year, and Scarlets have played some of the most exciting rugby in the north. Their match against La Rochelle this weekend is much anticipated. Leinster vs Scarlets should be one of the highlights of the domestic league, not a game that top players miss. Ireland will point to the results of the national side, and say the end justifies the means. If Irish teams become successful in Europe again, then they will justifiably think they have hit the sweet spot. Still, it's a harder proposition to market a league if your star players aren't in it. Not impossible, mind you, and many have said the Pro14 has looked better this year. Every English player will just get on with it, and try his heart out. Sometimes, that will be enough to win trophies at international level. However, there's no way on earth an English squad can get the best possible preparation over a four year World Cup cycle. Certainly not the preparation a union with rich resources should be happy with. We should probably start with a vision of what that four years should look like, and work backwards to see how to bring it about. To be honest, though, the current English (and French, of course,) problems are a version of issues other unions will face if domestic competitions can't attract crowds and TV money. We need well-prepared and competitive international teams but we also need lower level competitions with eager fans, and hotly-contested local derbies. England have the second but it sometimes comes at the cost of the first. I don't think any union would currently claim to have both. Some, like Japan, probably don't have either.

That may be true Pot but is NZ not a tougher tour than Aus or SA? Yes I do hope the new global season changes things for the better

Sorry RF but England has around 20% of all union players world wide and yet somehow cant give 25 players a decent rest? That is BAD managent...nothing else...Its totally their own decisions and toyally unnessasary so no one can be held responsible for it but themselves. If this stuff was happening in NZ the coaches guilty would be reprimanded and if it continues\d they would be sacked. I know you know this as you have said it above but when do the England RU start sorting this out? Will they be tired at the WC?

Not sure its Tman having the cheap shot Neil

CUW Lions touring squad is far bigger too so that overrides the extra games

Usually

did I miss something? :-)

Too late...tripped on that one... ;-) Yes I must chill on this one. Im currently wondering where England do get their rest between now and World cup time. SA will be just as hard for the side as the Lions team cos they'll all be there. Then we'll see how the clubs welcome them back this time...

Yes tis hard to see so many go- why are we not sending enough players and instead forcing them to play in their own comp... have we no heart? ..I'm only just holding back a tear Neil... In fact...I feel like starting a collection! there's a gap in the local Friday fundraisers here in Wellington so I might get out there for that. I'll get one of the boys to bring it over in the next run. Don't worry, working together we'll get there. :-)

Mate, to be honest with you, that just comes across as the sort of cheap shot I'd expect from Taylorman.

Tick...tick....tick. Like the drip...drip...drip of players heading North. It's always been thus Tman. Your best and brightest leave for the wider opportunity; we gift your our pensioners on the back of the exchange rate, a common language, and a reassuringly similarly miserable climate. Get over it.

Very very happy you took my "advice" TBD. You have raised many interesting questions, on your blog before, that I think deserves more attention and discussions. A very fair point that England should be able to have enough depth considering how many pro-players they have. The solution I can see for central contracting within the English structure is that the Union "owns" the players' contract, and the clubs can "lease" them. Thereby clubs might be able to get top players a bit more cheap and the Union would get a little fresher players. A little win-win for both parties maybe? But I do see your point that mixing the two worlds are not that easy or straightforward.

Jeez lol. Maybe you should have a bit of a lie down, Tman. I’m not suggesting empathy at all. I’ve stated half a dozen times in this topic that focusing on the extra playing time is looking at the wrong thing. Chillax in your cacks, there. You’ll do yourself an injury. ?

TBD. I picked 2006, 2010 and 2014 because the Irish player management system started in 2004. Besides France and England had made the championship a two-horse race for the previous ten years from 1995-2004 to the point where they started talking about joining the Tri-Nations because the other teams were so poor. Scotland spoiled it with the last 5N Grand Slam in 1999. In 2006, Ireland tied with France on 4 wins each. France won on points diff. France played Ireland in second round in a 10-try humdinger that eventually finished 43-31. England were fourth. In 2010, France won their most recent 6N with a Grand Slam. Ireland came second with 3 wins, England third with 2. Lions definitely took its toll on Ireland the next season with 15 players on tour even though they went the 2009 year unbeaten. In 2014, Ireland won it on PD from England who had beaten them at Twickenham. France finished fourth. In 2018, Irish Grand Slam, France fourth, England fifth - both with two wins apiece. In short, England not winning the Six Nations after a Lions tour has been happening for quite some time since before the professional era started in ‘95. France initially benefited, but Ireland have been on the rails with them since 2004 and pulled ahead more recently winning the last two. Substantial differences in playing time has been happening for 14 years. I don’t think this year has been in anyway exceptional in the regard.

And Im sorry for going on about it, the tone rather than the content, but the hypocrisy that is England rugby in saying they suffer from being overplayed to the extent that it impacts their international success, while drawing on hundreds of foreign players, something no other country bar France can dream of doing confirms you have an over selfish club set up, built soley for the dollar to the detriment of the international game worldwide. I expect an apology from English rugby to the rest of the world for ruining this beautiful game. Tick tick tick...

You could say the same for Ireland between this and last year. Wales and Scotland could have been won but they were away, a key difference in those matches this year.

‘I think they saw it as an accusation of the Irish having an unfair advantage’ Nothing unfair about it, its about applying common sense, having control of your resources, scheduling, player management. You know, avoiding all the dumb things that come with the greed of the english and french club scene. Too much money, not enough sense. What I love is though, is seeing England test rugby as a victim of its own greed, 6N karma. Great stuff. But anyway, that next truckload of players is on its way soon. Enjoy, on us. Perhaps they can rest a few more of those poor tired bodies??