The Six Nations has concluded for another year, and a very deserving French team took the honours.
But perhaps the biggest story throughout the duration of the tournament has been the debate surrounding Italy’s place in the tournament.
Therefore, what stood out even more than the way France won their tenth grand slam was the Italian victory over Wales at the Principality Stadium.
So the question must be asked: after a monumental losing streak of 36 games (the last win was against Scotland in 2015), will this victory quieten those who believe Italy should be dropped?
Since Italy joined the Six Nations in 2000, there have been four winners: England (seven times), France (six times), Wales (six times), and Ireland (four times).
In 2000, Italy had a win against Scotland. In fact, most of Italy’s 12 tournament wins have been against Scotland – seven in fact. They have now beaten Wales three times, France twice and Ireland once.
Italy celebrate their drought-breaking victory over Wales. (Photo by Bob Bradford – CameraSport via Getty Images)
The only team Italy hasn’t beaten is England – although they did scare England in 2017 with their non-contesting of the scrums in what was described as “psychologically… Italy’s day”. There have even been two occasions where Italy had two wins in one tournament – 2007 and 2013.
While it’s true Italy have won the wooden spoon on 17 occasions, they have been fifth on four occasions (2003, 2004, 2012, 2015) and fourth on two occasions (2007, 2013).
So, who else has won the wooden spoon in the Six Nations? Well, Scotland on four occasions (2004, 2007, 2012, 2015), and both Wales and France once (2003 and 2013 respectively).
Only England and Ireland haven’t had the wooden spoon since Italy joined the tournament in 2000.
Looking at the history of the tournament, in all its various formats, Ireland have been wooden spooners on 25 occasions, Scotland 24 times, England 19 times, both Italy and Wales 17 times and France 13 times.
Granted, most of these wooden spoons, except for the Italian ones, were in the days of the Home Nations (1883 to 1909, 1932 to 1939) and Five Nations (1910 to 1931, 1940 to 1999), but they’re still in the record books.
Also, important to note is France’s record when they first joined the Five Nations. In their first year (1910) they lost all their matches. In comparison, Italy lost all but one in their first year.
The following year they won one match and from 1912 to 1914, they lost all their matches – that’s 18 losses from 19 matches (a 95 per cent loss rate).
From 1920 to 1931 (there was no Six Nations from 1915 to 1919 because of World War One), France lost 35 of their 48 matches (a 73 per cent loss rate).
So their first 17 years in the Five Nations, before being expelled in 1932 due to allegations of professionalism, earned them a 79 per cent loss rate (53 losses from 67 games).
Yes, Italy have worse stats for the same timeframe – in their first 17 years, they lost 72 of their 85 games (an 85 per cent loss rate) – but it’s only a difference of six per cent, so the gap isn’t as large as some people think.
There’s been a lot in the media of late about replacing Italy in the Six Nations. The latest round of the perennial debate hit the headlines in February after an article was published in The Mirror about South Africa replacing Italy in the tournament in 2025.
(Photo by Chris Hyde/Getty Images)
The article claimed “The move is reportedly being pushed by CVC, who bought a one seventh stake in the tournament for £365 million”.
However, what was missing from the article is the fact that Italy are also stakeholders. Referring to the agreement between Six Nation Rugby Limited and CVC, former IRFU CEO Philip Browne asserted the unions will “retain complete control of all sporting matters”.
This is course means that “Italy would be able to veto South Africa joining the Six Nations at their expense”.
South Africa joining would “require unanimous agreement from the seven shareholders — Italy, England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and private equity firm CVC” and that might be a hard sell.
The only other way into the competition for SA is for expansion, and that “would cause enormous rows between clubs and countries because of the extra matches and would require World Rugby to organise a longer player-release window”.
So either avenue isn’t as clear cut as many of the reports suggest.
Of course, the $24 million question is, if expansion is the best option, who should be invited to join?
The news has been inundated with the merits of South Africa joining, but there’s been quite a bit of opinion opposed to that.
In a poll on ruck.co.uk, the most popular scenario is leaving the competition the way it is (34 per cent), with introducing promotion and relegation (31 per cent) the second favourite option. As for a country being added, 20 per cent voted for Georgia while only 12 per cent voted for South Africa. These opinions are mirrored by many pundits.
However, for Xander Chevallier, the promotion/relegation option is amiss: “The Six Nations is a tournament, not a league. There does not have to be a constant chopping and changing from it. Many tournaments across sport, and particularly rugby, have fixed opponents. One of the beauties of the Six Nations is that it is built upon sporting rivalries and risking removing these would be a huge mistake”.
He also discussed how Italy had had “good results against France, Scotland, Wales and Ireland” when they joined, and “Although Georgia do often win the Rugby Europe Championship, they have not had any noticeable results against full strength Tier 1 sides”.
(Levan Verdzeuli/Getty Images)
There are obviously pros and cons to modifying the Six Nations, but why fix what isn’t broken?
The tournament is a great advertisement for rugby, providing an exciting spectacle with the “highest average attendance in world sport”.
And if a team were to be added, should it not be a team without current membership in a Tier 1 tournament? Isn’t one of the objectives of World Rugby to grow the sport, rather than kowtow to Tier 1 nations?
In March, Rassie Erasmus admitted, “he’d love to see the Springboks trade the Rugby Championship for the Six Nations”, but as they “are locked in with the Rugby Championship until 2025, so for now it is still hypothetical”.
However, in November 2020, according to Sanzaar, “South Africa committed itself to the Rugby Championship until 2030”.
According to Sanzaar CEO Andy Marinos, “The re-commitment by the four unions to the long-term future of the international game is an important start as we embark in a new direction for both the unions and the organisation over the coming years”.
Marinos added, “Any talk of a change to the stakeholder relationship and partners withdrawing, creation of new teams in new markets and Trans-Tasman competitions is unsubstantiated speculation and simply wrong”.
So it’s difficult to know what the reality is.
But the bottom line is, Italy are Six Nation stakeholders and as such, deserve to be there. They are building nicely, and their under-18 and under-20 teams have been competitive of late. And that’s hardly just a problem for Italy.
For Kieran Crowley, “The positive thing about [the victory versus Wales] is they kept playing and kept believing”.
And after a week of having to ignore the noise surrounding their Six Nations status, that couldn’t have been easy.
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
NH Fan
Guest
Schmidt made a name for himself as head coach in Leinster and Ireland. Gats first 10 years in professional coaching was NH. Kolbe was an uncapped SA player who came to Europe just before his 24th birthday. A year later he gets capped. Lots of potential but playing against the big T14 packs got him a call up. You are welcome for France finishing his development.
NH Fan
Guest
The 4 SANZAAR nations in the June/July window will only face a 6N team and for the big 3 rarely Italy. That is 3 one games. In Nov the 6N usually only get 2 home games v SANZAAR countries in the window and play a T2 nation for one game.
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
Mate pull your head outta where it shouldn't be, as Papua New Guinea??? Get a life!! Along with try the right wording as well, it's Drua, not Dura. Just keep throwing your fellas money at SH coaches & players, as that's the only way you lot will eventually improve!! Like only one RWC in nearly 40 years is pathetic, & actually takes away the creditability of your argument. Along with your ridiculous assumption of PI rugby, it's so laughable. Have you ever been there, to see for yourself. Try it sometime mate, you might get a rude awakening.
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
So all of that whinging, verbal garbage, being what it is, it's so easily solved. Why don't you Poms ( I take it, seeing all the whinging ) have your own instead of buying in all these players & coaches from the SH???
Paulo
Roar Rookie
“As it is currently only the SANZAAR teams play all home games games against 6N sides. 6N don’t get the same luxury.” I’m confused by this statement. Are you saying, the SANZAAR teams only ever play the 6N sides at home? As in they never tour the NH?
NH Fan
Guest
You should read the part where I said away. Again you ignore the point which says you can disagree with it. Only 2 regions in WR are bring on developing Nations and getting international teams progressing, South America and Europe. Currently there are a limited number of places you can play professional rugby. If Papua New Guinea wants to take union seriously how will they get 30 players playing professionally. They aren't going to get a team into SR nor will they get 30 players into the league. Isreal who are currently the 25th best team in Europe signed up to the Super Cup and now are able to mix imported Club players with national players to improve their national side. Add in that Europe has an u20 tournament that Spain and Portugal have dominated over the last 4 years (Georgia aren't in it) which when coupled with the Super Cup has seen those two catch up to Romania. Spain and Portugal have a professional team each in the Super Cup plus stars players in the ProD2. In Europe players will get picked up so as the Super Cup improves you will see more T2 players in the Champions Cup. Currently Fiji and Argentina rely on European Rugby (You are a fool if you think the Dura is more than an development team that will lose its best players to Europe). Samoa and Tonga are also heading more and more to Europe for playing contracts. The one thing that the PIs, and the rest of the T2 nation's don't have is competitive u20 and international rugby. Ignore soccer all you like but rugby is heading the same way for the same reasons and NZRU RA are refusing to set up a counter pole with Japan in the same way the Americas in Soccer refused to counter Europe until they had lost.
NH Fan
Guest
Plenty competions where shut down in NH for longer than down in your neck of the woods. Yet no team or union decieded to make a new competition and try sign up teams in existing competitions. If you think that the NZRU weren't looking to replace SR as it was why was the Jags not included in SR Pacific and why did they try join the URC. I doubt the Jags walked away from SR. Anyway everyone seems happy with the new bed they made so better for everyone except Argentina but as you said NZRU couldn't kick them out so they must not of wanted SR Pacific or have a top professional team based.
NH Fan
Guest
It is my opinion that Laporte is running WR and Bill is just overseeing the change over. If Pichot had one we wouldn't currently be talking about eligibity changes or world league competition, we would be talking about how WR can do nothing and the civil war between Pichot and Laporte. There is a reason no one opposed him and when he runs for Chairman the result won't be close. Laporte is a politician through and through. If Pichot had been elected he would have been unable to get anything through. Not sure he would have allowed WR to support the PI SR teams but instead tried to have got Jags into URC or used it to all go to South American league.
NH Fan
Guest
You might not Eddie has got his England 2 wins two years in a row, not really top stuff. Gate and Schmidt are currently in NZ having both failed in their last big outing with NH teams. What players in European national team signed a player the SH teams produced and wanted. Hansen was struggling for game time in Oz and SR level, but with a bit of guidance is international. Don't remember any news reports where fans/unions/journos were complaining players leaving that appeares in any of the 6 Nations teams. There is always the we hate to see so many players leave but none in particular. If JGP or Aki were so key to NZ why did they not use them.
Just Nuisance
Roar Rookie
But late here . Rassie also said that joining the 6N won’t be at the expense of SAs Southern Hemisphere partners and if it’s going to damage the sport in Aus , NZ and Arg he would oppose moving . An online poll in SA Rugby mag was also conducted at the time of the Mirror article and 68% of respondents voted against leaving the RC in favor of the 6N . SA Rugby is also being unfairly cast as villains here based on an article of dubious merit .
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
Possibly far better than what your Bungling Billy has achieved, in his time there. Try opening the other eye!!
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
Honestly you have no idea!!! Try looking at some of the international teams, like Eddie, Gatland for the combined best of four nations team they call the Lion's, Recently retired coach of Ireland, Joe Schmidt, plus a few other SH coaches in the top jobs, etc etc etc. Obviously your assumption get in the road of a good story, when you say these players are normal on arrival. If so why is the big money being paid out to them, & they come home with pockets bulging???? Try visiting some of these nations, as I, & you just might be able to take in the the player development that these nations put into players, especially those showing ability. Had a look at Cheslin Kolbe, lately??
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
Wrong again Buddy, as Ireland has not a 100% losing record, against the AB's, as their first win against the AB's was in Chicago, when Joe Schmidt was the Irish coach. Remember him??? Naturally, you should have more clubs, leagues whatever, as try looking at the difference of population, & with all these clubs importing Melanesian, Polynesian, African & others from the SH, that have all virtually developed their rugby skill set, in the lands of their birth, you fellas can puff your chests out, & think you are the reason, for this. Mate, can I suggest, you get educated on the past history of the game, as well as the present, due to your assumptions, becoming laughable??
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
Mate your ignorance on this overall, is bordering on ridiculous. Obviously you've never heard of CoviD & how it has effected schedules & destinations where games are played?? To even suggest that Eddie is European, as with Gatland, Schmidt, plus a few other international coaches & even the players that are drawn to your shores, only for the money thrown at them, & then you all try to look for loop holes, so as they can play for your nations. Mate I'm assuming your a Pom, & if you are, try looking at your national team. Polynesians, African, plus a couple of other nations are well represented. Overall, have you cared to look at the history of the for & against records against the top tier SH nations?? We might also remember, your four nations team, you call the Lion's, in all their tours touring Aotearoa, you have only once won a series. Back in 71. So much for the best of four nations trying to take down one nation.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
“NZRU said they were implementing it.” This is where the story goes wrong. They never said they were implementing it. They did start fumbling around and talking to clubs they shouldn’t do, but it was a response to Covid. As that was when Covid was ramping up and international travel was stopped. As Wayne has pointed out. NZR doesn’t have the power to kick anyone out of SR. Except themselves.
NH Fan
Guest
I think they should go 8 team but not make those two owners of the six nations. Gate and TV would more than cover their bill and not kill professional rugby in the small 6 nation countries
NH Fan
Guest
SH coaches are less and less noticeable and the top teams at Club and country level are European. Players improve loads in Europe just look at Hansen in 6 months went from fringe SR player to a star winger in the second best team in Europe. Lowe has gone from defence turnstile to defending ok. What OZ or NZ player is the star of their team at Club or Country in Europe. Most stars are European players or PI or SA and most of those came over as normal players that some team took a chance on at a young age.
NH Fan
Guest
Ireland have 100% losing record away to NZ the last one being over 10 years ago. I am not sure how you think that the games they played in the last 10 years is less important that games these players saw on TV. Sport is sport and you would be foolish to not understand what weakened South American soccer and made Europe so strong. Brazil have the best WC record in Soccer and Uragary and Argentina are strong too but no one has them as favourites next WC. Italy, European champions just got eliminated by North Macedonia so won't be at the 2022 WC and failed to make the 2018 WC. European nations have the structures that benefit all European nations and makes Europe more compeditive driving performance. Rugby is the same, Academies, integrated underage, integrated club games, integrated international. You only have to look at who has qualified from Europe T2 compared to every other T2 region. Change is coming and it is not that Europe is better it just has half the rugby nations at all levels and can run loads of professional leagues that are integrating giving any European nation the ability to get 30 professional players for their national league. Prior to the break up of SR SANZAAR had 17 professional teams that could compete salary wise with Europes 38. Add in the money paid by the Russian, Romanian, Spsin, Italian (second teir), English and French second division and you are talking another 50+ v the Currie Cup and NPC. We now have the European Super Cup looking to get to 12 teams (currently 8) and a third professional division in France (they will have 46 professional clubs by themselves) while NZ and Oz are stuck fighting with Japan and MLR for players to fill their SR squads. Fiji have their stars in Europe and look at their progress because it easy to find places for 30 fijians in 50 clubs. SA is now also getting more money to keep better players which they could not of under SR.