From Wills to Milburn, some things never change

Pippinu. I get you.... when it comes to the greater good and for the sake of a party, historical accuracy can be overlooked and/or ignored. So the truth is important, but only so far as it helps to further our code's modern and contrived marketing needs. Where there is a conflict and the history doesn't help us to paint a fullsome and positive spin, then let's just ignore it, distort it or ridicule it.

"Michael C - I’m not interested in the rugby celebration, all I’m talking about is the Melbourne controlled AFL and how it treats all of us." But, Blind Freddy, rugby aren't celebrating anything this year.

Blind Freddy So I'm only just now starting to understand that you are a non-Victorian aussie rules fan who is dissatisfied with the prominence of Melbourne/Victoria in the history of the game. I can only add this: 1. The first recorded game between Melbourne Grammar and Scotch College on 7 August 1858 occurred somewhere in the vicinity of the MCG - a national icon (as is the Opera House and the Harbour Bridge). 2. My memory is a bit hazy on this, but either Wills or one of his cohorts (or both) was/were from New South Wales. 3. Within a couple of decades of this first game, it had pretty much spread across the continent to varying degrees. 4. Both Geelong and Ballarat had a big influence on the early devlepment of the game. Indeed, the ANU historian, John Molony, former president of the Belconnen Football Club (in Canberra) is of the strong view that much of the quirky footballing language (like leading and shepherding) comes directly from the gold fields of Ballarat. Indeed for a few decades, the Ballarat league was considered almost as strong as the VFA and they used to play representative matches against each other. At the end of the day, it's a celebration for all Australians and an important part of Australian history, culture and identity - accept it as such and let the historians interpret the events of 1858/1859 as they see fit. Don't get wound up about it - sit back and enjoy!!

Gillian Hibbins and Blind Freddy, you guys are to be congratulated for standing up to the fact that Grooky is only 149 yrs old and it will be next year that Grooky is 150 years old.. btw Michael C's argument of RL being really 101 yrs old is puzzling .. but then I suppose when he celebrated his eldest 5th yr birthdays, it was in his eyes celebrating their 6th yr birthday; hmmm makes you wonder what Mrs C was doing sending out invitations to the twins 5th yr birthdays.. :) ~~~~~~~ KB

Michael C - I'm not interested in the rugby celebration, all I'm talking about is the Melbourne controlled AFL and how it treats all of us. An yes Lindommer, I am an insular Australian football fan, but not as much as Victorians are.

Blind Freddy - The Hibbins article is taking a very specific line. Fair enough. As Bruce and Pippinu indicate - - there's never really a definitive way to draw a line. It suits some NRL folk to claim the AFL is raining on their (centenary season) parade - - and, yet, they had 100yrs notice that the AFL might be following the 1908,1958 timeline. Irrespective that no AFL folk having been putting to the NRL that the 'league' was established at a meeting in 1907 and that with season 1 in 1908 that they are celebrating season 101. It's funny how what the AFL does seems to matter so much to NRL media whingers, but, how much attention do the AFL media pay to the NRL. (often I feel just a fraction more might be healthy, for perspective).

Blind Freddy, about the same as VFA to VFL in 1980. It continues to amaze me how worldy Victorians are about cricket but so insular and provincial about football. I was born and brought up in southern New South Wales and enjoyed Aussie rules as my first football experience. My parents sent me to a boarding school in central New South Wales, which played rugby league, before commencing secondary school at one of the big boys' boarding schools in Sydney, which played rugby. On other occasions I've played social soccer with some mates. I've watched VFL/AFL in Sydney and Melbourne (including one grand final), Aussie rules in the country, rugby league in Sydney and Brisbane (including two ARL/NRL grand finals), State of Origin in Brisbane and Sydney, club rugby in Sydney, Brisbane, Canberra and the country, Super 12/14 rugby in Sydney, Brisbane and Canberra and rugby tests in Sydney, Brisbane, New Zealand, Ireland and Scotland. I've also watched soccer in Sydney and Brisbane, including the Socceroos against Manchester United and AC Milan, as well as one English Premier League match, Chelsea and Arsenal at Stamford Bridge. And I'm still a referee in my 50s. All the different football codes have their good and bad points which I enjoy. Blind Freddy, just so you don't make this same mistake again: the Waratahs, Western Force, Wallabies, All Blacks and Springboks play rugby; the Brisbane Broncos, Melbourne Storm, Sydney Roosters and Kangaroos play rugby league. The two codes don't play each other, as Prahran wouldn't play Footscray in 1980.

That's a bit like the arguments about the millenium. If you start from zero, the first 1000 years finish when you get to the end of 1000, not 999. Same with the second millenium, so we should have celebrated at the end of 2000, not the beginning. So 150 years from August 7, 1858, brings you to the end of August 6, 2008. Which by my reckoning was about 18 and a half hours ago, so the 151st year has just started.

Bruce don't worry about Sonny Bill, what about weighing into this little debate of ours: is 7 August 1858 a reasonable date to celebrate the birth of the great Australian game?

No, Blind Freddy, they're not, which is why they won't be able to stop $onny Bill's move to France. If he was trying to play rugby league in England it'd be a very different story.

League and Union are the same sport aren't they?

"I don’t follow rugby so I have no idea why they are celebrating their centenary in their 101st season." Blind Freddy, rugby's been going a lot longer than 101 years.

Blind Freddy this other article you quote is essentially talking about a form of "folk football" that did exist for centuries prior to the modern forms of football. But with Australian Football (and the other codes) we are talking about something being derived directly form the English shcool system - and that is where Wills (and others) come into the picture. All these people you cite are playing around with the same facts that all of us (and all the historians) know about. There's nothing new here, believe me. At that end of the day, if you want to pick a date over something that has continued to evolve for 150 years, then 7 August 1858 has a strong a claim as anything anyone could ever come up with - and most importantly - it's fully documented.

I don't follow rugby so I have no idea why they are celebrating their centenary in their 101st season. All I did was point to the argument AND EVIDENCE that Hibbins put down in her article. Given Hibbins is a historian why do we dismiss what she says in favour of citing Hansard from 1908 and the AFL web site? Everyone knows the AFL = Melbourne/Victoria and the rest of us in SA, WA & Tassie can rot. Australian football was being played in Tasmania long before Melbourne, but hey, who cares! http://fulltext.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2003/sportsf/s951881.asp

Blind Freddy - I play in the VAFA - the Victorian Amateur Football Association. We join with Old Scotch and Old Grammarians in celebrating this milestone. However, counting the original match - - one would be celebrating this year the 151st match. Or this year is the 150th celebration of the first match. Which do you prefer? And it is still consistant that 2008 is the 150th season of Football in Melbourne under the rules that started out in 1859 when pen was put to paper as the "Melbourne Rules" (of football). How is there a problem with that? WHat are YOU arguing? (and please, don't bring up Fagan, I still haven't seen him justify why the NRL are celebrating a centenary season in the 101st season???).

Blind Freddy, you've offered nothing yourself than references to articles that you spin. Where are your views?,stop referring to other peoples work, demonstrate your understanding of Australian football's history, if you can? Redb

Blind Freddy There is nothing to refute. Hibbens is not denying that the events occurred, we all know they did occur, she is arguing that the date of the codification of the rules marks the true origin of the game of Australian Football - and that's a reasonable point for view from an eminently qualified person. I am simply saying that there are sufficient links between the events of 1858 and the codifciation of the rules 9 months later to put them on the same continuum, and therefore, we have every right to celebrate the first recorded game of Australian Football as being the game between Melbourne Grammar and Scotch College on 7 August 1858. The links? Wills umpired this game and then was part of the drinking party of 4 or 5 who codifed the rules 9 months later. But let us be very clear - the first set of rules only had 10 rules, and much was left unsaid. The truth is that as at 1863, with the advent of the FA rules, a person sitting up on a hill watching Australian Football, Association Football and Rugby (along with Sheffield and Cambridge rules) would barely have been able to tell them apart (even though they were starting to diverge already). The important point for Australian Football is the the genesis of our game dates back to this time, the blueprint for how the game was to develop goes back to this time (no offside, the mark, kicking goals, etc.) - and from that perspective, the first game between Melbourne Grammar and Scotch College has as much right to be considered the birthdate of the game as does the codification of the rules in a pub during a drinking session some 9 months later.

Pippinu you've still written nothing to refute the claims in those articles, particularly of Hibbens.

Thanks for that Redb. I never tire of reading it. Of course every Victorian schoolchild grows up knowing the history of this first game. But it never ceases to amaze me that Australians (or at least certain sectors of Australians) can be the most vocal in doing their utmost to diminish the significance of the proud and long history of Australian Football - our very own game.

From the AFL website, a good snapshot and clarity on what is being celebrated, enjoy... A game is born ON AUGUST 7, 1858, 40-a-side turned up at Richmond Paddock for a game of football. The goal posts were 990 yards apart, the field dotted with trees. Tom Wills, the man regarded as one of the game’s founders, was an umpire. The game was played over three weeks, the winner the best of three goals in the custom of the Rugby School rules. On September 4, the match between Scotch College and Melbourne Grammar – including several staff members – was declared a draw. It was out of this match that the modern game is believed to have evolved. The following May, Wills and several others sat in Jerry Bryant’s pub on Wellington Parade and developed a set of 10 rules governing a new code. Pre-dating the Melbourne Cup, Wimbledon, and even the Ashes, the competition between Scotch College and Melbourne Grammar is believed to be the second only to the Oxford and Cambridge Boat Race, established in 1829. “I can’t think of any competition out there that’s lasted this long. It’s not usual that you can have a sporting competition that can run for 150 years,” Scotch College historian Dr Jim Mitchell says. The suggestion that the Scotch-Grammar match is the first ever game of Australian football is a controversial one – there were several other games played earlier, usually in the form of scratch matches combining the rules from various football codes. But former Scotch teacher Bruce Brown argues that the tradition, regardless of this debate, is to be celebrated. “It mustn’t have been much of a spectacle,” Brown says. “But this game actually publicly heralded, I think, the enthusiasm we have for football not only in Victoria but across the country.” The Scotch-Grammar match has been played at various venues over the decades, including the old South Melbourne football ground. During the 1940s, it moved to the Melbourne Cricket Ground. Today, the schools alternate the role of host to the match, which attracts several thousand vocal spectators every year. In 1989 a cup was instituted to honour two legends from the schools. “The cup was well named,” Brown explains. “It honours Dr Don Cordner, who was a great Melburnian, later to be a Brownlow medallist in the VFL, 1946. He went on to be president of the Melbourne Cricket Club. “Mick Eggleston was at Scotch College in 1947, a great footballer, athlete. He took up teaching as a career, came to Scotch as a master in 1958 then went on to be one of the great Scotch football coaches. "All the boys who played in his teams, particularly in the 1970s, treasure the memories.” Sadly, Eggleston died suddenly from a brain tumour prior to the Cup being instituted. His wife, Nelle, is a much-loved figure at the school and she and Cordner attend the match each year to present the winners’ trophy. Nelle has presented the Cup to Scotch on 15 of the 19 occasions the Cordner-Eggleston has been played. Throughout the match’s history, 107 players have been drafted from the schools into the VFL/AFL – nine of them current. On August 8, 2008, Scotch College and Melbourne Grammar return to Richmond Paddock, in its modern-day incarnation of the Melbourne Cricket Ground. The schools will play the curtain-raiser to the Melbourne versus Geelong match to open the AFL’s Tom Wills Round, in celebration of that rough 40-a-side contest, 150 years ago." Redb