Muscat "deeply hurt" over betting scandal

Towser - one thing that came out of the 'debate' in AFL circles after those stories broke is the sense that - A. in AFL, you have more than a single match official to 'bribe' B. you have 18 players vs 11 on the field at any given time C. you have many more scores it's harder therefore for a corrupt individual to successfully influence. however, betting is an issue anyway - - as, punters are often annoyed by coaches playing ducks and drakes with their team selection (i.e. the possible fitness of players who turn out late withdrawals), and, if the 'punter' came first, then, perhaps a coach would never be permitted to pull his best player from the ground late in a 'decided' match to protect him from injury - - because, the punters have a concern relating to 'margins', or goals by a certain player or whatever...........but..............ultimately, buyer beware applies to the punter too (but, the horse racing aspect of being given every opportunity, if you applied that to footy?? - - you can see then that all aspects of list management and player management can be seen negatively - - tanking? It's a sordid topic. At best.)

The Answer You misunderstood me. What I meant to say is that diving and cheating (gamesmanship is a better word) is more readily accepted in Italian and Argentinian culture in football matches. It is a part of the game. The way however they roll around and play act gets up our noses. It is like the way we sledge in cricket is accepted in our culture, however in Indian culture it is not accepted. Therefore my point is that a sport remains a sport. The way it is played is dependent upon a country's values and culture. It just might not agree with the culture of other countries. Yes Harry Kewell and Aloisi have dived but they didn't do 24 rollovers in the process with their hands on their head. Why? Because Australians don't accept it. Other nations do. Even in other codes we have players who fake injuries or dive. I see many players in AFL fall at the slightest touch from another player's tackle with their hands flying in the air. League has had its incidents this year with Gallen and Michael Ennis. It is a win at all costs attitude of many sports. Because football is so international and covers so many cultures it is more likely to be criticised in this case.

oops, sorry bout that. Then your right! :-) Redb p.s. message to self, read all posts first....grumble grumble....

Redb I was actually agreeing with the article Pippinu mentioned so I dont comprehend what you are saying. Rationalising what? Gambling in Australia generally. Football gambling?(just gave reasons why it can be dangerous) I think what I've said previously is actually agreeing with what you are saying

Towser, You sound a bit like your rationalising it with your Melb Cup reference. The issue is not so much that gambling permeates much of today's soceity, it is that sporting competitions must protect the integrity of results. Once the public think match results are fixed, it's game over. As futbol is a low scoring game with only 11 players it is perhaps more susceptilble than other codes (fairly or unfairly perceived) and with the baggage of the Italian comp a couple of years ago, the FFA should want to maintain a very firm line here of zero tolerance. Redb

Pippinu My experience concurs with the fact that gambling is given a greater degree of latitude in Australia in comparison with others. This can be exempified by the "Race that stops a nation" the Melbourne Cup. What other country in the world stops work for a horse race. So even employers give certain latitude to gambling. Its not too hard then to carry this latitude to all areas of Australian society.

Ok I'll steer away from the Wednesday bribes scandal. Unless you came from Sheffield you wouldnt understand the depth of emotion this event caused in the city,remebering that their are 2 clubs each with equal but divided support. I'll also seperate the two media markets that is England & Australia regarding football reporting. I absolutely refute that their is any general softness in the British press towards the misdemeanours of footballers. In fact the opposite. The Grobelaar story Michael C is indeed mischievous. Here In Australia I agree with Pippinu:- "At the moment, the world game does not have any of the larger capital cities as its primary market and misses out on that saturation media coverage, but it also misses out on having the blowtorch put on it. Under normal circumstances, this event would have had a massive blow torch put on it. I understand that certain trouble makers will be tempted to come out and play, but I’m talking about proper, intense media coverage." As I said betting to bribes a whisker away. I hope this is not a case of "comes back & bites you on the bum". The reason I say that is because as discussed in great length Football in Australia at professional level is being carried along on the wave of Asian football development via the AFC/ACL. That has its upside & its downside & one of the downsides is that their are many countries in Asia where corruption is a way of life. Part of that corruption has been allegations betting & Bribery by Asian syndicates as per Grobelaar story. As the ACL Asian Nations cup get bigger in terms of International prestige,bingo their ripe for the gambling mad sections of some Asian countries to"have a nibble".

Further to my last post I've only just noticed that Jake Niall has written an excellent article in The Age on the subjuct (a sponsor of the Victory it should be noted). He puts the soft stance by the FFA in the context of the soft stance many Australian administrators have taken on betting scandals, such as cricket and aussie rules, i.e. that there is actually a problem with Austrlaian mores that we don't take gambling in sport seriously enough as an issue. In America, he says a professional sportsman can be rubbed out for life for betting on ANY sport! (a direct result of match fixing scandals from early last century) He closes his fine artricle with this interesting para: "Soccer got it wrong, which, in a sense, is a sign that the sport really has joined the Australian mainstream."

I was mischievously searching for an 'excuse' as to why the 'true soccer journos' would be going soft...........or..........maybe they are just agenda driven and don't won't to 'damage the brand'??? (this then questions integrity and independance.............btw...........in the Australian context). Basically, Ben Buckley and the FFA have a track record now of haphazard, poorly thought out and inconsistant penalties. (or maybe I've read too much of Pippinu's comment re MVFC!!!) For me - - like often before.............if ever I think the AFL HQ is ham fisted, all I need do is look 'sideways' and realise that they aren't on the Pat Malone.

Towser I think MC is saying that journos are going to lay off the three concerned because of the threat of litigation (?) I sort of agree with you that if we ever discovered more about what those three were up to, if they had actually crossed the rubicon, then there is no way any elements of the press would hold back (and the game would be put back 30 years). There is one curious aspect about the media for, let's say AFL, RL and the world game in this country. In their respective main markets, say Melbourne for AFL and Sydney for RL, they get enormouis media coverage as is often mentioned in the Roar, but at the same time, that very same media will go to town at the misdemeanours of the more famous players - it's very much a double edged sword. At the moment, the world game does not have any of the larger capital cities as its primary market and misses out on that saturation media coverage, but it also misses out on having the blowtorch put on it. Under normal circumstances, this event would have had a massive blow torch put on it. I understand that certain trouble makers will be tempted to come out and play, but I'm talking about proper, intense media coverage.

MIchael C IN the case of the Wednesday bribes scandal I'd hardly say:- "journos and editors are reluctant to go too hard too soon" I sat & watched the devastation on my grandads face as the journalists "stuck the boot "in one Sunday morning on this story in the People & News of the World newspapers he read. Once the story was out there was no holding back & the consequences were dire" So what are you implying by this remark:- "Bruce Grobbelaar case however might give a clue as to the nature of soccer reporting around unsavoury stories"

The Answer - you've hit the nail on the head - - soccer folk (the vocal ones at least) seem to become very prominent when anyone (even mostly based in fact or common 'knowledge/perception') makes at all a negative comment or viewpoint regarding soccer................and these soccer folk are craving media coverage.................and yet - the reality is, with the powder puff profile pieces (PPPP's), you need to be able to attack a topic.............and presently there's deafening silence. No doubt some will warm up their swords and probably aim them at managers.............that's what usually happens............sack the manager!!! (joke that). Bruce Grobbelaar case however might give a clue as to the nature of soccer reporting around unsavoury stories : In November 1994, Grobbelaar was accused by the British tabloid newspaper The Sun of match fixing during his time at Liverpool to benefit a betting syndicate, after being caught on videotape discussing match-fixing. He was charged with conspiracy to corrupt, along with the Wimbledon goalkeeper Hans Segers and Aston Villa striker John Fashanu, and a Malaysian businessman, Heng Suan Lim. Grobbelaar pleaded not guilty, claiming he was only gathering evidence with the intent of taking it to the police. After two successive trials, in both of which the jury could not agree on a verdict, he and his co-defendants were cleared in November 1997. Grobbelaar later sued The Sun for libel and was awarded £85,000. The Sun appealed, and the case was eventually taken to the House of Lords where it was found that, though the specific allegations had not been proved, there was adequate evidence of dishonesty. The Lords slashed his award to £1, the lowest libel damages possible under English law, and ordered him to pay The Sun's legal costs, estimated at £500,000. In his judgement, Lord Bingham of Cornhill observed: "The tort of defamation protects those whose reputations have been unlawfully injured. It affords little or no protection to those who have, or deserve to have, no reputation deserving of legal protection. Until 9 November 1994 when the newspaper published its first articles about him, the appellant's public reputation was unblemished. But he had in fact acted in a way in which no decent or honest footballer would act and in a way which could, if not exposed and stamped on, undermine the integrity of a game which earns the loyalty and support of millions." Grobbelaar was unable to pay the costs and was declared bankrupt. Perhaps, journos and editors are reluctant to go too hard too soon, as, even though the papers won in the end, it was a messy business.

What is the difference between betting on your own league & taking a bribe to throw a match? In 1965 3 players from my home town team Sheffield Wednesday were jailed for 4 months & suspended from football for life. .Apart from the southern scumbag interloper David Layne(persuaded the other two to do it) the 2 local lads Tony Kay & Peter Swan were broken men. Working class lads from the Sheffield area had few choices the steelworks mines or building sites. Link below This also destroyed their blossoming England careers. For the princely sum of 50 pounds. Some Wednesday fans also say that this was the beginning of the end for a proud club. Who knows but the price paid for 50 quid seems way out of proportion to the price paid by Australias 3 musketeers. I dont propose banning for life or jail sentences for betting but I agree with Steve Kaless & Spiro the sentences were extremely lenient & the softly softly approach was only taken because of the possible perceived"fragility" of a new league. As a football fan it doesnt bother me I've been around the game long enough to know that its subject to all the human vices but I understand in Australia that its not as concrete as that. All the same too lenient. Betting & bribery are but a whisker away. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_British_betting_scandal

"Just a shame that John Aloisi seems to have lost his scoring touch." Now there's a euphemism if I've ever heard one!

MC and redb - you are both right that we are talking about quite experienced players, not kids who have just left the family farm for the first time to play in the big smoke. I'm a bit embarassed that about 5 weeks ago I actually interviewed Kevin Muscat, and wrote up a piece for 442 entitled: "A Leader and a Gentleman".

Sam, Be careful using Russell Crowe as a stone to hurl at rugby league's house. I seem to remember that Anthony La Paglia's investment in Sydney FC was certainly used to drum up fans interest, add to the Bling FC image (the "Hollywood" star), woo sponsors and fill media space. He has not renewed his investment though has he? The membership issue is slightly more complex than the one you paint. The recent talk about "memberships" is about "season tickets" traditionally few rugby league fans bothered with these, you just turned up and bought a ticket at the gate. Also with the Leagues Clubs having such a link to the football club, most people were members of the Leagues Club, while others also joined the Football Club. But given the fact that members of football clubs then had voting rights, most football club boards didn't advertise for memberships as they liked to keep it a closed shop. So there is no doubt been a sea change about clubs wanting to drive season tickets, in the same way that the Sydney sporting market is a competitive place. However, I for one don't see that much in the so called "football wars" and think it is better for codes to learn from each other than everyone take pot shots at other codes. You'll find most fansof all codes tend to live in fairly large glass houses and suffer from selective blindness on that front. Enjoy your footy.

So diving and cheating is a cultural characteristic of Italians and Argentinians? At best that comment is woefully naive at worst racist. "Australians play the game in the right spirit." Harry Kewell was renowned for his diving before he left Liverpool, and Aloisi has been at it in his desperation for a goal at Sydney FC. For a game that has a global audience it seems many of its fans have particularly narrow views of the world. Also, regarding my point about people not attending games to watch the EPL or whatever at home, the fact of the matter is that in order to get bums on seats you need to provide an incentive to get fans to the games. The NRL, AFL and Super 14 can all boast close to a world best quality. The same can't be said for the A-League and the fact is that there are plenty of football fans who don't attend A-League or if they have they haven't returned. It is a problem for the code, for all their juniors these kids aren't dragging mum and dads to the A-League. Face facts, don't shoot the messenger. Michael C, yes I remembered the AFl example after posting my response. With the greatest respect those "no names" were certainly dragged through the media far more than these Socceroos. Even Mr Cockerill has been silent on the affair, maybe he is warming up another puff piece about the riches of Frank Lowy.

Billo I agree with you. People think that football is all diving and cheating but they are cultural characteristics from nations like Italy, Argentina etc, rather than football characteristics. Australians play the game in the right spirit. And we have even come down hard on some of our imports for diving and they are slowly learning the Australian way. We try not to be arrogant but just want some respect as much as we do have our weaknesses, we have made some inroads in the last 5 years. The thing I am worried is that Sydney supporters might not turn up in protest next game. Although good to see the competition being so close. I watch a bit of league too, and think its main problem is that it is a good product to watch on TV which means people will not necessarily go to games.

Dave - it certainly WAS NOT code vs code point scoring. I fully detailed the AFL happenstance just so that ignorant code vs code wouldn't flow on from the comment by 'The Answer'. Simon Goodwin got a whack - - and I illustrated his case in detail, as, he was identified as a gambling addict, I gather that Brebner at least has that excuse - - and if so - - Brebner is, like any addict - going to be battling probably forever - - - from the AFL perspective, we get reminded almost every day on radio SEN drive home program with David Schwarz (a reformed gambling addict). It's no joking matter and good luck to Brebner - - - it illustrates that for clubs, whether it be drugs, or gambling or whatever, a player battling addiction is a constant potential thorn in the side. Melbourne FC had issues, as with Schwarz above, and Daniel Ward and Travis Johnstone. Probably because of issues there - this was brought to a head. Who knows what went on in the past that wasn't reported????(in all codes). As indicated, Kieran Jack and David Hale were done for bets totalling less than $10. At the time, around 2005/06, David Hale was aged 21/22 (from Broadbeach), and Jack aged 18/19 (from a RL household in Sydney) - - - they DID perhaps have an excuse for not being fully aware..............because of their young age..............the line taken by Buckley and the FFA is as if describing these guys - - - - and NOT experienced campaigners and club leaders like Muscat and Moore especially. If you're going to revert to implications of code vs code pointed scoring........then you may as well go chucking in 'un-Australian', and 'racist', and 'nazi overtones'...............Dave.............grow a spine yourself..................I was being informative. My code bashing will be reserved for it's rightful place. And Ben Buckley bashing is quite distinct to code bashing!!!

Sam, When you wrote the following I completely agree with you: "Creating the a-league is about Australia creating its own football identity. It’s about developing a league with an Australian feel and culture to it, and trying to improve it. It’s about creating our identity in the world of football. Of course the standard isn’t as good but that makes us all the more determined to improve it." But that means radically changing some of the characteristics of football we see in most other countries. The cheating, whining and bad sportsmanship that I see every week in the English Premier League can't be part of an Australian competition, because, if it is, ultimately it will fail. One characteristic that soccer supporters should learn in Australia is not to be so arrogant about their game, assuming that one day it will automatically be the number one code. But you're right to say that rugby league has shameful membership figures in Sydney. That's the legacy of a lousy administration going back many years. Rugby league is easily the worst adminstered sport in Australia, even though it has potentially the best product, if only it could realise it. It was good to see more than 12,000 people at the SFS for the game against Perth Glory, which was more than I thought would be there. Just a shame that John Aloisi seems to have lost his scoring touch.