If the Brumbies can't win in 2010, they never will

Just as a footnote, one should keep in mind that a considerate amount of shuffling has basically amounted to most springboks ending up in either the already bok-packed Bulls or the Stormers teams in South Africa. Any team aiming at ultimate glory will have to keep the Hurricanes, the Bulls and the Stormers in eye as a trio of considerable opposition (if the coaching is there mind you...)

Brumbies Officially favs for the comp according to bookies Force tipped to finish last reds 2nd last and tahs 4th Oh and Melbourne new club in 2011

Spencer, I agree entirely. Clubs expect loyalty from their players and they should show loyalty to the players. As I said before I hope Salvi stays in Canberra and that Elsom goes to the Reds. As to financial compensation for clubs who have developed players, I had the same thoughts when Gits went west.

Andy… my apologies. You are right, Julian Salvi is indeed a born & breed Canberra player. Which ironically further supports my point about implementing incentives to retain and develop own players. It would be incredibly disappointing for Julian if he is forced to leave the Brumbies because they have recruited Elsom. It would be interesting to see what percentage of each of the four S14 squads is developed in which provinces. Whilst I have no problem with players moving between provinces and obviously the Force (and lesser extent the Brumbies) needs to get players from somewhere, there must still be some return on investment to the province that develops a player. I don’t propose transfer fees, but merely some financial recognition when the negotiation starts.

According to the Brumbies profiles, Julian Salvi attended Marist College in the ACT and captained Australian Schools XV in 2003, joined the Brumbies straight from school in 2004 and made his S14 debut in 2005. I'm not sure how Queensland comes into that.

Currently the ARU doesn't recognize or reward player development and loyalty. Andy's comment above mentioned 4 key players: Chapman, Salvi, Elsom and O'Connor. These are all players that were developed in Queensland. In fact if you look at the Wallaby squad and the 4 Australian S14 teams they are stacked with QRU developed players. The Reds had the incedible misfortune of the alignment of several factors: the Force was formed, QRU administartion was poor (still is?), and a lot of the Reds established players were nearing the end of their careers. I would like to see a system were the ARU top-ups (which I undertsand are the majority of the salaries) are increased by 25% for players that were developed in that province. This would force WA Rugby and ACT Rugby to invest more in their own player development pathways.

All Black Steve Pokere was benched for Auckland behind Kurt Sherlock, Mary Holah behind Richie McCaw, Duane Monkley behind Michael Jones, Zinzan Brooke behind Wayne Shelford, Robbie Deans behind Allan Hewson.

Frano Botica was bloody good for years but only got a few cracks at the 10 jersey for NZ due to Grant Fox.

McCalister Benched behind Carter

Your're all getting a little carried away with the Brumbies. As I stated before, adding O'Connor, Gits and Rocky will merely take the Brumbies quota of players in the current Wallaby squad to 9 - one less than what the Tahs had this year and 1 more than what the Force had. While personally stoked that we are getting Gits, I think it is a shame the reds seem to in a never ending hole where players just won't want to ge there and that's not good for Aust rugby. I also don't adher with stacking a side as we need to keep the crowds coming to games in all states. Further more I feel sorry for the Brumbies younger players who have stood up this year - Toomua especially. But that's the game. Whitikar lived in Gregan's shadow, as have numerous other players through the years. Interesting topic for discussion - Who's the best player to be benched because a better one had been around from any country?

There is talk that the tahs will cut their current squad of about 30 or more by 3 or so players, given financial problems (i.e. GFC and crowds down). This includes decent players with S14 time like Playford. The move to the Super 15 has caused Hickey to suggest the squad will have to be the larger number we had this year to cope with the longer season, but I don't know if this means the cut for next year won't go ahead. If it does happen, the Reds should snap these boys up. Even if they aren't 1st XV players, and NSW is not hanging onto them, they are still decent players. NSW's problem has always been it can't hang onto every good player it produces locally. The Brumbies and Force are happy for that. The Reds have a tendency to recruit their own, but there is a history of NSW players going to the Reds to get a start (and vice versa sometimes). Given the Reds major issues with depth, and having to blood new players with very little experience just to keep a full team on the park this year, the tahs loss may very well be a great gain for the Reds to help bolster their squad. If we end up with Playford & Co in Reds jerseys putting tries on us next year, I'll be spewing!!!! But it'll be good for Australian rugby.

ANDY,I HOPE YOU GET YOUR PREFERENCE,cos the reds arent standing still theyre going backwards and rocky would bring hope ;otherwise more dysfunction and depression

You say the Brumbies have only lost players they didn't really need. Not true - Gerrard's departure leaves a big hole and the Brumbies will miss his huge kicking and distribution skills. As an indication of the loss, when he got injured, the Wallabies full-back (AAC) was an inadequate replacement. Fairbanks is also leaving - he has been a valuable cover for the inside backs and will be missed. Traditionally the Brumbies have not poached established players from other provinces, transfers have been only of young players or those who couldn't get a start elsewhere. (There have been exceptions of course - Giteau is a Brumbie anyway, he's just been on holiday, and Moore was a trade for the Faingaa twins). As a Brumbies fan I would like to see that continue - it's what makes the culture. I would much prefer us to keep Chapman and Salvi and for Elsom to go to the Reds and O'Connor to stay with the Force. The team will be competitive anyway.

As indicated in the media, I suspect it is unlikely Elsom will go to the Reds. While it would be a great shot in the arm for them, and perhaps help attract some other players, I expect he wants to play in a team that can challenge for the title in the next couple of years. he wants to play test footy, and RWC2011, but after that he may well head back to Europe or in 4-5 years time. In that time he will want to get a title, and the Reds may not be able to do it in the time frames he wants. The ACT and Tahs can.

I hope the Reds get Elsom. It would be good to see the Reds build and rise again.

Being the one eyed Tah I am, I just say this. Loyalty: Reds - Latham, Roe, Croft Tahs - Waugh, Burke (would have stayed but was let go) There are more for each, but I'm in a rush. Smith staying at the ACT springs to mind too. There are some players who will hang around for loyalty even though they could have earned more elsewhere or in Europe. I don't know that it is the younger players that are more "mercenary". They tend to be the ones that are trying to break into an established side, so they will go elsewhere to do so. That was really the problem with the Reds when the Force started up. They nicked a few starts, but the main thing they stole was their depth. The players that took the chance to go to the Force and step up (Pocock, Brown, O'Young, etc) were all fringe players. But not having them to fall back on, for the Reds, has lengthened their slump when the Lathams, Roes and Crofts left or were injured. Part of the problem is also the loyalty shown to players by the team(s). You can hardly blame blokes like Hewat for going to Europe when the only thing keeping him out of the Wallabies was Knuckles and some pity pick (I'll steal Hemjay's term are recycle it) leaguies. I know some didn't rate him, but he was top points scorer in S14, and never got a look in Robbed!

Link, As you seem so keen to dealonly in fact I thought I would mention that Elsom and O'Connor was only speculation, but I guess when it doesn't suit its no good. Anyway, I think you've highlighted the difference in culture and why the Tahs are chokers and underperformers. They will accept being the best Australian team. The brumbies want to be the best in the whole comp!

Interesting that it is the older players, Waugh, Smith, Mortlock etc, who you get that vibe of team loyalty from. The current crop seem to be more mercenary. For example, Digby Ioane is a great talent but he demands to the leave the Force and is now conducting his contract negotiations in a very public forum that reflects poorly on him. I know it is the way of professionalism but surely some loyalty and team spirit can still be engendered. Berrick Barnes thankfully appears to be a counter point to this trend. Link suggests that the Brumbies have lost their culture. Given the more frequent movement of younger players in search of the best deal, I think that in some way all teams are losing their culture to a degree as the team becomes a workplace rather than a 'team'.

Dan, I take your points. But look at it from a players point of view. Is it fair that the choice of a playes own team, team mates and location be taken out of their hands? And what happens if a monopoly naturally develops - i.e. a team for whatever reason becomes a team of world-beaters. Do you then rip that team apart and distribute its players elsewhere? I usually find the NFL, NBA, etc. drafts bizarre with players traded like bits of horse-flesh. I guess the salary cap concept is designed to be the happy medium and I don't have a problem with the salary cap concept. Nor do I have a problem with a player earning a few (alright, a lot of) bucks on the side through sponsorship, ARU topups, etc. It all comes down to where the lines are drawn and how well they are policed. I'd love to see the figures for each of the provinces players.

Canberra is no tropical destination. Why would players want to bring their families and live there? No one forces them to sign with any franchise, it's all up to them and their managers. So why do they go? For the development of their game, the greater opportunity to crack the Wallabies.AND the culture. Players have made mention of this time and time again. You can have a great culture and still not be semi finalists. I played in a team with a fantastic culture, but we got flogged regularly. Conversely, you can have an unhappy team of stars ocassionally winning as well. A good culture can help the boys play for each other and perform better, but it does not automatically add up to victories, esepcially when the other team is better! As for Tahs buying leaguies, that was as much supported by the ARU for publicity, as it was for any on field benefits. Anyone who knows anything about ACT rugby will know that because of the tiny corporate dollar in town, they do not, and can not offer the sorts of big dollar deals that the Force and Tahs can. Hence the persistent rumours that the Brumbies will move to Victoria for financial reasons.