England’s Andrew Flintoff, on his knees, is congratulated by teammates after bowling the wicket of Australia’s Peter Siddle. AAP Images
Time to play Tony Barber. Who are we? Two cricket players with similar-ish records. I am good, but nowhere near as good as I am hyped up to be, while I am very good and nowhere near hyped up as I should be.
Take a pick of the board if you answered Andrew Flintoff and Daniel Vettori.
This week, Daniel Vettori became just the eighth cricketer to manage the double of 3000 runs – 300 wickets.
He did so by clouting 140 while batting at Number 8. Whose company has he joined? Try the very elite and exclusive club of Chaminda Vaas, Shane Warne, Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, Shaun Pollock, Sir Richard Hadlee and Ian Botham.
And it’s not like he sneaks in.
He has the fifth best batting average of the group and the fourth most Test centuries.
He does have the highest bowling average of the eight, but most likely the Kiwi pitches have something to do with that.
Vettori is not just a fantastic bowler and batsmen, but has blossomed into a good captain, which is something the likes of Botham, Pollock and Flintoff all struggled with.
Head to head, Flintoff has scored 3,845 runs to Vettori’s 3,492 at averages that are both close to 30. With the ball, Vettori has 303 wickets to Flintoff’s 226.
The Kiwi has taken 10 wickets in a match three times and five wickets in an innings 18 times, compared to the zero and three of Flintoff.
Going by the numbers, Vettori is the superior cricketer by some way.
Vettori has spent most of his career batting at 8 and 9.
He averages 24 at 9 and 42 at 8. Flintoff has batted at 6 and 7 and here he averages an identical 32.
Was Flintoff a victim of his own image in that bowlers made more of an effort to dismiss him while they relaxed when they saw Vettori stroll to the crease with them already six wickets down?
Did Flintoff deserve the Man of the Match award at Lords? Definitely not.
In the second innings, he dismissed both Australian opener, had Brad Haddin caught with his first over of the final day, and then clean-bowled Numbers 9 and 10.
This was seen to be better than Andrew Strauss’ 161.
Often perception is more powerful than reality.
Here is just another instance of what we see all the time in sport. For whatever reason, player A is given significantly more credit than player B, who flies under the radar.
Freud of Football
Roar Guru
Fact is fact. Vettori is now on a list that includes only 7 other players. Two of whom have already been knighted and a certain SK Warne is certain to join that list in the future which shows the quality of the players Vettori has joined. He isn't a legend of the game but he is a genuinely good cricketer. Flintoff might turn a match but he is just over-hyped for his laddish behaviour by the english tabloids and is hence their current poster boy, Vettori on the other hand just goes about his work quietly in a very mediocre side and doesn't have the scandals associated with him or the chants of his name. He's the only Kiwi since Chris Cairns that I'd have picked for Australia if he were available.
Colin N
Guest
"It’s one of the reason why they are struggling in Test Cricket." Yes, one of many I think.
Colin N
Guest
"Flintoff - burned brightly once perhaps twice throughout his whole career" That's a myth brought up by people who only watch Flintoff in an ashes series. For his first 20 tests, his bowling and batting averages were woeful, so he must have had some seriously good performances to get them to what they are. He's had some poor games, but between 03 and 05, he very rarely had a bad game.
dasilva
Guest
New Zealand barely plays any test cricket. Most of their series they play only contains 2 matches. It's one of the reason why they are struggling in Test Cricket.
Colin N
Guest
Talking about inconsistant, there's no-one more inconsistant than Harmison in the England set-up, including Flintoff.
Colin N
Guest
That's interesting, despite Flintoff being injured most of the time, he's still played more than Vettori. I suppose he has played in three full Ashes series meaning that he has wracked up 14 test matches in three series.
Colin N
Guest
Those stats are similar to Botham's, although Botham did play more tests, of course. Very impressive nonetheless.
Colin N
Guest
"Not anywhere as abject as the Ashes debacle that Flintoff “lead” … throw in the attitude of basically holding the whole team to ransom to ensure he got it in the first place - really doesn’t make your bloke too much of a team player …" Yeah, he had a shocker in Australia, but he did captain England on the tour of India and they managed to draw the series 1-all against a very good India side, whereby Flintoff's captaincy was well received. It's not an example to suddenly say he could have a been a great captain, but it suggests you cherry picked to suit your own argument.
SouthernWaratah
Guest
If Vettori had have had a Gillespie or McGrath at the other end he would have been a strike bowler. I lost count the amount of times Warne credited Dizzy for the 5 wickets he took as he contained the other end and created pressure by ensuring a low run rate...
Jerry G
Guest
Funnily enough, I think it's the bowling that rules Vettori out as a genuine all rounder. He's not really ever turned himself into a strike bowler - he's always been about containing and buying wickets on the odd occasion. In fact, if anything he's less of a wicket taker than when he first broke through. He sends down the arm ball far more often, instead of using flight to try and pick up wickets. His batting though is a revelation - he averages over 40 in the second half of his career. He's got a very unorthodox technique but a very good eye and has worked on his defensive game to be one of the best lower order batsman around. Unfortunately, NZ's top order doesn't have the same stickability these days - if the likes of Oram, McCullum and others too numerous to mention had Vettori's ability to not sell his wicket cheap, the Black Caps would have an "R" inserted into "Caps" less often than they do.
Viscount Crouchback
Guest
Flintoff: Home Tests 40 Runs 2007 Ave 35.21 Wkts 109 Ave 36.11 Away Tests 39 Runs 1838 Ave 28.71 Wkts 117 Ave 29.69
Hammer
Guest
You won't get any argument out me re his poor dress and grooming code VC – not hard for a bloke to have a shave in the morning, put a comb through his hair and and arrange with the front desk to have the whites and blazer pressed … what I will say about him though is that he basically pretty uncoordinated – always has been – you’ve only got to look at his running in the field and as you point out running between wickets. But in spite of that he sticks at it and give 110% whenever he fronts .. hence he’s turned himself into a very decent allrounder - does he deserve to be in with Khan, Dev, Botham - no ... and I 'd say Vass isn't one to be muttered in the same breath as those blokes either - but overall he's proven to be better than Flintoff glad to see you corrected yourself on Cairns ...
SouthernWaratah
Guest
How many of Flintoffs wickets were in England? and what was his average elsewhere? Was he ans English conditions bowler only? As Anderson & Broad may very well and their careers as....
Jerry G
Guest
Sorry, that's his five fors. 1 ton against Aus, India and South Africa and 2 against the Zimbos.
Jerry G
Guest
According to Statsguru - 1 each v Aus, Bangladesh and Pakistan, 2 each against Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe and the Windies and 4 against England.
AndyRoo
Roar Guru
Playing for England is obviously going to attract more attention. If Richard Hadlee had of played for England there would be a county named after him.
Jerry G
Guest
Cairns averaged 33.57 with the bat and 29.40 with the ball. He got 5 wickets in an innings 13 times and scored 5 centuries. Flintoff averaged 31.77 with the bat and 32.78 with the ball. He got 5 wickets in an innings 3 times and scored 5 centuries. Over their careers, Flintoff scored about 500 more runs than Cairns and took 8 more wickets, but played 17 more tests. Yeah, how dare Hammer offer up someone with a better bowling average and batting average as being a better player? Ridiculous. I agree about Vettori's captaincy though, it's nothing special in tests.
Viscount Crouchback
Guest
I think Cairns has a much better claim than Vettori. Tests: 62 Runs scored 3,320 Batting average 33.53 100s/50s 5/22 Wickets 218 Bowling average 29.4 5 Wicket Innings 13 Does anyone know who Cairns took his fivefers and centuries against?
SouthernWaratah
Guest
Here’s throwing a spanner in the works! Question: At their peak and fully fit Flintoff & Chris Cairns. Who do you pick? Cairns for me!
Viscount Crouchback
Guest
Oh, indeed. I find Flintoff the chap to be rather obnoxious if truth be told. I simply question whether Vettori's captaincy credentials are quite all they are cracked up to be. He strikes me as a rather casual sort of fellow - perhaps not dissimilar to Flintoff in some respects. In England last year he frequently turned up for the toss ill-shaven and without his team blazer. He then reinforced this air of laziness by being run out at Headingley for failing to ground his bat at the end of his run. It was quite appalling to witness such slovenly conduct from a nation's captain. I'm afraid the rest of your post is just rather silly. Why not chuck in Jacob Oram and some other motley collection of Kiwi no-hopers?