As the NRL finals series enters its third week, the McIntyre system knockers again line up to take shots at the top eight system.
As soon as the momentum into the finals started to build, Andrew Johns, Darren Lockyer, Wayne Bennett, Warren Ryan and countless others criticised the system as unfair and not representative.
But is the system really all that disadvantageous, and would things be different if we went back to the pre-McIntyre NRL system as the AFL have done?
Critics have problems with the McIntyre system on the basis it disadvantages the top teams because there is the chance of elimination for teams 3 and 4, because it is not representative of the evenness of the competition post salary cap and the home ground advantage is apportioned strangely.
But would it have actually made any difference to this year’s competition?
Elimination of teams 3 and 4:
While this is technically possible with the McIntyre system, this has never happened in the ten years the system has been in place in the NRL.
And while Manly may make a claim that they were unfairly eliminated despite their high ladder position, it is important to point out that they would have also been eliminated had they put in a similarly poor performance against the resurgent Parramatta.
Disadvantaging the top teams:
In the first week of the finals, Manly and Newcastle were eliminated, and Canterbury and Melbourne won the right to a week off.
Considering the differing quality of the performances last week, we would have the same results with the other top 8 system. Parramatta would have accounted for Manly, Brisbane for Newcastle, Canterbury for the Titans and Melbourne for St George.
This week, therefore, the same teams would have the week off, and the same would be eliminated. The same matches would be taking place this weekend.
Surely the evenness of the competition since the salary cap is a good thing and must be encouraged – that’s why we have top 8 and not top 5.
Home ground advantage:
If the NRL reverts to the AFL system, teams 1, 2, 5 and 6 get a home final. Considering how well the Titans did all year, would it be fair that they travel to ANZ against the Bulldogs while the Broncos get a game at Suncorp against Newcastle?
I don’t know if the AFL system is really all that fair – the Bulldogs beat the Lions to keep them out of the top four, but the Lions get to play at the Gabba in the first week while the Bulldogs and Pies get no such advantage. Of course, being Melbourne teams, this doesn’t have as much of an impact.
Besides less chance of elimination, the main advantage of the top four finish is a home final. It is unlikely Melbourne would have won by so much had they played north of the border. They finished one spot higher than Manly and should get this advantage. And in the second week, a game at Suncorp is a good reward for the Broncos (6th) beating the Titans (3rd). Why should the Dragons or the Titans host two semi-finals in a row despite losing to lower placed teams?
Also, in this semi national competition, someone needs to host a final. This is great Australia-wide for spectators and for revenues. The games can’t just all be played in Sydney because if there are no NSW teams, then no one will turn up.
Dan Wighton
Roar Guru
Im pretty sure the Wee Waa Panthers would have beaten Manly at Brookvale considering the way the Eagles played v the Storm.
Greg Russell
Roar Guru
Pip, Effectively what the first week of the McIntyre system does is to change the ranking of all teams. The highest ranked winner becomes team 1, the second highest becomes team 2, and so on through to the highest ranked loser becoming team 5, the second-highest team 6, and the next 2 eliminated. With these revised rankings, week 2 always has to be 3 v 5 and 4 v 6, because 3 v 6 and 4 v 5 will always be repeats of week 1. For example, this year the first week changed rankings to 3 Brisbane, 4 Eels, 5 St George, 6 GC. So Brisbane hosting GC and Eels hosting St George would have been repeats of week 1, but with home advantage reversed. This is why Brisbane (highest-ranked winner of week 2 teams) had to play St George (highest-ranked loser of week-2 teams). As this logic shows, the McIntyre system has inbuilt and unavoidable quirks (injustices?) in it. It should be ditched.
Dogs Of War
Roar Guru
The McIntyre system only needs one fix. Each week the highest ranking winner gets to choose their opponents, the 2nd highest winner chooses next and so on... Even weeks 2 and 3 can be done the same way, this will ensure that teams create their own destiny's, not to mention throwing some major wildcards into how the match up's work out.
Pippinu
Roar Guru
Beardan what you ask above is part of what I described as quirky outcomes that are counter-intuitive. Let's assume that 1st and 2nd win, as they will most seasons. That means that all of 3rd to 6th play each other again - but they do so in reverse order. The thing is, you can't assume that 1st and 2nd will always win - so you have to develop a rule that can apply in all situations and scenarios, so the rule goes like this: ..in the second week of finals, the highest placed winner (of those who haven't gone through) plays the highest placed loser, and the lowest placed winner players the lowest placed loser (of those who didn't get eliminated). Thus, going back to the situation where all teams win according to their position in week one, you end up with 3rd playing 5th and 4th playing 6th in week two (a reversal of the first week). However, if one of 1 and 2 lose, that messes things up a little, and you end up with these quirky outcomes, in this case, Brisbane was the higher ranked winner (higher than the Eels), and played the highest ranked loser, i.e. St George, and the other two ended up playing (Titans v Eels). The other logic of this set up is that the Bulldogs is now the highest ranked of all the teams, so that's why it got to play the Eels, which was the winner of the two lower ranked teams in week 2. So there's a certain logic to it all - it's just that you need to be a rocket scientist to unravel it all, and at the end of the day, it's still a bit quirky for mine.
Pippinu
Roar Guru
That's right - if I'm not mistaken - they both swapped virtually in the same year. I understand why the AFL left the McIntyre system (and it had a lot to do with what Greg touched on, that teams often didn't know what they were playing for, if indeed they were playing for anything). I'm not actually sure why the NRL took up the McIntyre system. I should add that it is possible that the AFL introduced one twist to this system that wasn't there for the NRL - and that's the reversing prelims - basically meaning that you don't get a rerun of the first weeks finals - and come to think of it - that may have contributed to the NRL decision to drop the original system.
Beardan
Guest
This, in my opinion, is a poor article. To even suggest Parra would have beaten Manly at Brookvale on form is ridiculous. Also to say it would be unfair for the Gold Coast to play away whilst Brisbane played at home is ludicrous given if the Gold Coast lost they would get a home semi final the week later. Can you explain to me, under the stupid McIntyre system, that Brisbane, who finished 6th and won, had to then play the team who finished 1st in the season, and Parra, whi finished 8th and won, got to play the team that finished 3rd in the season. How can Brisbane end up with a harder match than Parra in the second week of the finals. Once you explain that to me, without your strange logic that filled up your article, let me know.
Karlos
Guest
Keep the McIntyre System. It throws up greater unknown variables and adds to the excitement. If your team plays well it will get through. Stop whining and enjoy the football. I am looking forward to the weekends games coming up, knowing the best teams are contesting. I am a Knights supporter and hate the Broncos, but they deserve to be where they are due to the sacrifices they make at SOO time. They were the best team prior to SOO and the best now.
prowling panther
Roar Rookie
what makes the situation more ridiculous is that the system that the AFL currently uses was copied from the ARL about ten or so years ago. The AFL clearly saw the light and dumped the McIntyre system for it whilst rugby league administrators again failed to make an informed decision.
Greg Russell
Roar Guru
One thing to get straight is this: in the AFL system the minor premier is also eliminated if they lose in both week 1 and week 2. So the only issue re what has happened to St George is that in week 2 they did not get to play at home, whereas in the AFL system they would have. But in the AFL system team 1 plays team 4 in week 1, which (in theory) is harder than 1 vs 8 in the McIntyre system. That fact that team 8 in the NRL this year came into the finals in super-hot form is something one cannot legislate against, so it should not enter into debates. Until last year a criticism of the McIntyre system was that it was too easy for team 1 - all they had to do in week 1 of the finals was play at home and beat lowly team 8, and such an easy task gave them a saloon passage to a home final in week 3. Now suddenly team 1 has lost in week 1 for two years in a row, and everyone is complaining that the system is too harsh on team 1. Taken together these points illustrate Pip's criticism that "the McIntyre system can produce some quirky results that are counter-intuitive." I actually prefer to put it a different way: the McIntyre system delivers chance outcomes over which a team has no control. This is well illustrated by Melbourne vs Manly. How many people realise that had Melbourne lost that match, they would have been eliminated? In other words, the disparity in outcomes was unjustifiably large: the loser got eliminated, the winner went straight to home advantage in week 3. All this for teams that had come 4th and 5th, i.e., whose season neither justified such a big advantage nor deserved such a big punishment. Of course none of this was known when Melbourne vs Manly was played, but that doesn't change it's the way it ended up. This is my point about "chance outcomes over which a team has no control." If GC had beaten Brisbane or St George had beaten Parra, these outcomes would have been very different. Of course this is just one example, but every year there are examples like this with the McIntyre system. I believe a fundamental principle of finals in any sport should be that a team controls its own destiny, i.e., it knows going into a match what happens to it if it wins and what happens if it loses. There is exciting unpredictability in the McIntyre system where the AFL system is "mechanical", but at the end of the day the AFL system is fairer and more reasonable. And we all know that the NRL knows this, but it won't switch to the AFL system because it doesn't want to give any impression of copying their opposition.
Dan Wighton
Roar Guru
This is happening in the English Super League this season, and it will be interesting to see how it goes. In this system, you choose who you play before the game (i.e. you choose to play the winner of A v B, as opposed to C v D). If the NRL take this approach, they should keep this in place, because choosing who you play after the game would be too big of an advantage (considering injuries etc).
Dogs Of War
Roar Guru
One of the suggestions on the footy show, was that we follow the same system, but in the first week, the top team gets to choose there opponent, 2nd place (if not chosen) gets next choice and so on. At least there can be no complaints about who you play first week, and after that the system reverts to what is currently the system (where the 2 highest ranking losers get a second chance in week 2).
Pippinu
Roar Guru
Point One: Agree. Point Two: That's a little bit speculative to be honest. Point Three: I had trouble following this point. Teams 3 and 4 would get home ground advantage if they lost in the first week to 1 and 2. That both St George and GC lost home ground advantage after the first week to 6th and 8th and were knocked out is the big talking point. At a minimum, you'd think that teams finishing 1 and 2 would have a permanent home ground advantage for the whole finals series - surely they've earned that much after 24 rounds? I'm not saying that the AFL system is better because it has at least one flaw in its make up - that one and two are almost a 50% chance of meeting in a prelinary final, and that's impossible under the McIntyre system. But for mine, and I thought this as well when the AFL used it, the McIntyre system can produce some quirky results that are counter-intuitive.
prowling panther
Roar Rookie
titans may not have had to play the bulldogs at anz but even if had they lost, they would have played their next game(sudden death) from robina. As it stands, they ended up playing a sudden death game in Sydney which is completely unfair for a team that finished 3rd after 26 gruelling weeks of nrl football