The Magners League could be considered the best rugby competition in Europe currently. This is mostly due to the success of the Welsh and Irish teams in the H cup.
It is the smallest top flight competition in Europe, however, next to the Italian Top 10.
Originally the competition consisted of 15 teams, mostly from Wales. Wales then consolidated teams, due to financial constraints, and reduced to four teams. Scotland similarly had to dump two teams along the way – Border and Caledonia.
Ireland have created and sustained four teams based on the traditional provinces.
Now as they look to expansion of the competition, two Italian teams are supposed to join (with some doubt coming in recently) and the WRU have had a long term strategic plan for North Wales for a few years. This would mean Wales would have five teams, Ireland four and Scotland two, with possibly two Italian teams.
Scotland, however, are also looking to readmit two teams once finances are realigned and reach a point of parity and following that profit. This could mean the readmission of the Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds. All of this adds up to thirteen teams, minus the Italians.
This is certainly an odd number. But what can they do: financial constraints and a probable need to keep it as “Celtic” as possible.
There are two forgotten Celtic nations, however: Brittany, in the north west of France, and Cornwall, in the south west of England. Both could play a part here (its sounding very Super 15-ish).
The Cornish pirates are the top flight team in the Cornwall region.
They have been trying to gain entry into the premiership for a few years now and have a large following in the region. There are regular rumours of building a suitable premiership stadium and continued growth through mergers and acquisitions with other clubs from other codes.
With proper development, and a good strategic plan, a change in direction could be achieved, making it possible for entry into a possible 15 team Celtic league.
This would be good for the cultural links, the English rugby community, and the Magners league, spreading popularity south and getting the RFU partially involved.
A 15th team has two options for this scenario, although one probably has little viability.
The Isle of Man has a long history in rugby, but does not have full sustainability in terms of population and popularity. But it could prove a good offering.
The most viable option, though, is a team based in Brittany, France.
This area, although in the north of France, and lacking a Top 14 team, has hosted rugby before (RWC) and has a growing following, as well as being in the Celtic League of Nations.
This is the most promising place if there was to be a fifteenth Celtic League rugby nation.
Of course, this scenario would be a long way off, with the Welsh only recently recovering financially and the Scots still in a bad situation. But if expansion was to ever take place, I see this as the direction it could, and should, take.
Lankelly RFC
Guest
As a Pirates fan this would be what I would want, I have talked to countless fellow fans and the vast majority favor this also . In Cornwall we also have 2 other very sucsessfull clubs Redruth and Cornish all Blacks who play in NAT 1 or the old NAT 2 .It would be wonderful to hope that these 2 clubs who bring on so much Cornish talent could be allowed to be feeder clubs to the Pirates . To see teams like Ospreys ,munster Glasgow and the like playing in Cornwall would be a dream. In the past we have produced a host of internationals and there is currently a lot of talented players who are Cornish , eligable under IRB rules to be classed as Cornish , or born else wherebut were raised from childern in Cornwall. Phil Vicery , Jason Hobson , Darren Dawiduik , Luke Charteris, Hugh Vyvyen, Dan Ward Smith ,
Jannerboyuk
Guest
Its worth remembering that its in effect a strange version of relegation. I can only think of rotherham getting relegated and not coming straight back up, mostly with a 100% record. Following plymouth albion from a distance it gets frustrating when we were beating almost everybody in a very competitive league except whoever had just been relegated. Exeter chiefs are in the same boat right now - like us they have built a nice new stadium, built up crowds from nothing to around 4k but the chances of promotion feels zero. Watching teams like saracens, wasps, london irish getting 7k quite often is annoying when either a cornish side, plymouth or exeter would be getting much better regular crowds (leaving the wembley experiment to the side for a moment).
Jannerboyuk
Guest
I cant see any clubs in the ML agreeing to a top european qualification. How would it be in their interest? The HC is the be all and end all of club life, nobody really gives a toss who wins the ML.
Jannerboyuk
Guest
Dude you are vastly overstating the celtic identity of people in cornwall, outside of the county ruby union side having the occasional trip to HQ. Cornish identity has developed recently but nowhere near the level of wales. I come from plymouth and now live in wales so i can see the contrast. the magners league is a nice comp but its nowhere near the top 14 of the guiness premiership and welsh and scottish crowds are pretty awful for it. Shame that italy have been refused admission but i dont think the finances added up, which doesnt surprise me to be honest.
Joh4Canberra
Roar Rookie
I agree with the Viscount here. The RFU would not be in favour of this. And without RFU approval it's not going to happen. Yes of course Cornwall could in theory gnore the RFU's wishes and go ahead and join the ML and the ML unions (Wales, Scotland and Ireland) could in theory ignore the RFU's protestations and admit Cornwall. But there would be consequences to such a move -- and no-one would be willing to pay the price. There would of course be consequences for the players in the Cornwall ML region (eg no chance of test selection). But more than that there would also be much more serious consequence for the celtic league organising unions -- Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- who along with the RFU are all members of the IRB. I imagine there would have to be is a basic principle of "territorial integrity" for IRB member unions. Any IRB member union which admits a team from another IRB member union without the latter's permission would be subject to expulsion from the IRB which would mean no more Wales, Scotland and Ireland test teams. So without the RFU's backing this is not going to happen. And, moreover, while there is a bit of a distinct "Cornwall identity" it's not all that strong. 500 years ago, yes of course they spoke a different language and hated the English with a passion. But nowadays they are basically Englishmen living in a region with a distinct history and an extinct celtic language. Revive the Cornish language and maybe you'll revive the celtic sentiment. Until then it's not going to happen.
Rowdy
Guest
English rugby players ? Whine ? I'm shocked you could think that.
Thomond Park
Roar Rookie
The Italians won't be joining they didn't want to stump up with the money and their two proposed teams were going to be based in small towns which doesn't benefit Italian Rugby
Matt
Guest
If anything, the relegation of Quins and Saints was good for them? Both got a much needed shock and revolutionised their setups. Both bounced back VERY strongly from the drop and it galvanised their support bases and lead to a clearing of the rubbish and a more focused drive. Maybe the threat of relegation should be seen as a means of improving the performance of GP clubs, rather than a hindrance... I do like Potale's idea of a Top 6 ML qualifying system for the HC. The ML teams rely of Euro qulification to get the fans through the gates, but maybe if the fans were shown that the ML mattered to the teams then they'd show up for most matches. This would be especially important once teams qualified for Europe. The Italians must be resigned to their own domestic competition now. They now need a miracle to take them to the next competitive level because it isn't going to happen anytime soon under the current situation. It is possible that in 2023 the World Cup (which will be European bound after Japan 2019) might be awarded to Italy. This would offer the Italians the opportunity to capatilise on the massive publicity and money of the WC and to establish a more widespread Premiership of their own.
Sam
Guest
It would piss off every other club not in the premiership - the RFU would be aware of this. Plus of course it would be expanding the fan base of a foreign competition at the expense of it's own.
Derm
Roar Guru
I didn't know that VC. I stand corrected on the Saints and Quins. I'd agree about Wasps and Saracens. Newcastle? Have they not been inhabiting the nether regions of the GP for some time? I think Edinburgh are pulling their socks up, but we'll see how the season goes with the play-offs introduced this year - that has made the league more competitive. Lineen, McGahan, Cheika, and the two Scottish coaches seem to have points to prove.
Derm
Roar Guru
Well - you see what you want to see, VC. To my mind, media - Irish or English/British - has always sought the dividing line, not the combining one. And the ballyhoo about only one GP team making the HC quarters was fomented and led by the English-published newspapers. Fans - excluding the spotty teenage types who seem to inhabit most of the UK blog fora - are well beyond the specific triumphalism you seem to perceive about playing English club teams. I stand regularly amongst Irish rugby fans, and if anything it's the French teams are the ones that set the bar in terms of getting one over them. I don't mean this disparagingly, but Northampton are the same as Ospreys or Edinburgh - a team to beat, not that they are particularly an English club. It's probably different at test level, but even that is dissipating compared to previously. For the last few seasons, France have been the team to beat. The inaugural Croke Park match against England was probably an exception, but even that match displayed the new-found respect teams/fans have for each other. This season, the match Ireland must win, and want to win, is the game in Paris. The players and fans know it. The England game is not the 'historical conflict' it used to be. Though as we've spoken about previously, I still wish it was Pullin's successors who were turning up for the inaugural Lansdowne match in November. Simply being the first part of a South African 'grand-slam' tour takes away from the occasion, which is a shame.
rugbyfuture
Roar Guru
the rfu does rule the game, but its still a strong sub union, the cornish rugby football union. the celtic-rangers thing is an example of british influence where the nationalists and britishists(?) are divided, not the modern celts and modern celts.
Viscount Crouchback
Guest
The point is: the Cornish are English, the RFU rules the English game, and there is absolutely no way they would be prepared to accept English teams joining the Magners League. It is that simple. The whole "pan-Celt" thing is absolute poppycock put about by romantics with zero knowledge of history. The reality is that the Celts are as divided amongst themselves - see Celtic and Rangers - as they ever were (supposedly) united against the English.
rugbyfuture
Roar Guru
the point is he still has a strong feeling of being a cornnishman, that doesnt say he isn't proud of being english too, but given the opportunity and the money, don't you think he would be willing to play for a cornish team? the cornish still havea great deal of self identity in correlation with modern pan celtism and those cultural ties would be there. The Celtic league of nations would be willing to support it i would say.
Viscount Crouchback
Guest
That's not remotely accurate. The biggest GP clubs ARE under constant threat of relegation. Maybe not in a particular season, but absolutely over the course of several seasons. For instance, both Northampton and Quins - two of the biggest clubs in England by any measure - have been relegated in the past five years. Bath have come perilously close. The GP, because of the salary cap, is about 1,000 times more equal and competitive than the soccer Premiership. It's daft to make any comparison between the two. But yes, you're right about the constant qualification for the HC. It's a nonsense that the Scottish, Newport and Ulster receive entry year after year while quality English clubs - this year including Wasps, Sarries and Newcastle - kick their heels on the sidelines.
Viscount Crouchback
Guest
By the players, perhaps. By the fans and media, not on your nelly, old fruit. The Irish newspapers have been full of triumphant nonsense about dishing the English this week. It's as much of an obsession as it ever was.
Viscount Crouchback
Guest
I wouldn't go overboard on the whole Celtic thing, rugbyfuture. Cornishmen are first and foremost Englishmen. Just ask Phil Vickery.
Derm
Roar Guru
I forgot to add that relegation is a grande herring rouge in this argument vs GP/Top 14. The top teams in the GP and T14 are never under threat of relegation - it's the equivalent of saying that Man United, Arsenal Chelsea, Liverpool face the threat of relegation each year. In theory they do, but not in reality. What cushions the teams in the ML is automatic country qualification for the Heineken. Connacht is the only team in the ML that doesn't stand a chance of qualifying in the league. Albeit this year, they finished as top seeds in the pool stages of the Challenge Cup, and might, with a fair wind, make the semi-finals. What the ML needs, even without Italians joining, is a Top 6 placing automatic entry to H Cup with no determined country allocation. So if last season's ML standings were used, then it would have been Munster, Edinburgh, Leinster, Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues who automatically qualified. The remaining 3 places get fought out in qualifying matches with other GP and T14 teams. Viadana and Treviso should not be getting into the H Cup automatically - they imbalance the runners-up spots in the pool stages of the H Cup practically every year. Northampton and Ospreys who got the 7th and 8th runners-up spots for the quarter-finals both had Italian teams in their pools and were practically guaranteed 8-10 points - notwithstanding Treviso's better than usual performance this year. Being permanently flogged to death each season is no way to learn for the Italians. Getting ahead in a second-tier comp such as the Challenge Cup would give a better learning/development curve for these kind of teams. And if they happen to win the Challenge Cup, they've earned their right to be in the Heineken the following season. And if there was to be some comp involving other celtic clubs, then maybe look at restoring the knock-out Celtic Cup with 12 teams and involving teams like Cornish Pirates, and a Breton Club. at the same time, drop the Anglo-Welsh Cup, thus cutting the GP clubs to 22 games each season, and everybody wins. Or something like that.
Wavell Wakefield
Guest
Maybe baby, maybe. I suspect that the fact England has been easily (comparatively) managed by Ireland in the 6N since 2003 might be a factor too.
Derm
Roar Guru
Oh that's in the wrong place. No edit function anymore to correct it. the angl0-welsh league fell down cos the Welsh regions got thrown out of the Celtic League the last time they tried to have jam on their egg. There's still something simmering though with Wales making noises at Scotland's commitments if they withdraw from the =LV Cup. But I've quite understood what the connection is on that one.