Biased refs? What about biased commentators!

I'd've said it is in the wording. “Can I award a try” = I didn't see it grounded, can you? "Can you see any reason I cannot award a try” = I did see it grounded and will award it unless you can tell me of something I missed As I understand it, with TMO assistance, if it wasn't discretely seen it won't be awarded. Obviously different at park level.

Andy et al. What IS the rule re: benefit of doubt ? Any refs there care to inform as to whether the attacki9ng or defending team gets the benefit of doubt ? I remember in last years internationals some refs would ask "Can I award a try" others would say "any reason I cannot award a try" or words to that effect.

Hmmm, and there was me expecting to see folk jumping on Murray Mexted for branding the TMO a "wimp" for not awarding a try to Tialata based on probably. Still, just colour and candour no doubt, not bias....

I spoke to the last bloke you mentioned, QC, in Wellington at last year's Bledisloe Cup - I had met him back when he was playing - and he didn't think Wellington was at all bad as a city to visit 'cos he was seeing two of them, and that was at half time! Don't they have the insides of pubs in Pretoria? As commentators I like the unobtrusive call by the bloke who anchors the NZ Fox (Sky) TV rugby call (Tony Johnson?) Grant Fox as a serious commentator and Mrrrry Mxxxtd for his candour (and for no vowels in his name - no doubt a blue blood Kiwi). The RSA commentators are utterly appalling. The three Australian Fox commentators were good for a couple of years but have deteriorated over time. They have not evolved or refreshed their work, much like Bray, Horan and Crowley on Channel 7 come Test time. They are all simply too subjective, pedestrian and not at all well versed in the laws, which they should be. Marto simply rides his favourite player, O'Conner at the moment - last week for his "exceptional vision" as he booted a ball into a small open space and it popped up perfectly for an opponent to run onto it at speed and make 40 yards gain! He did not call Wonder Boy once for his trademark missed tackles. Kearnsey doesn't have the easy temperament of Mxxxxxxxxxxxtd, or the wit - he used his Newington College opportunity to work as a brickie's labourer years ago; and Greg Clarke has read and believed Gordon Bray's memoirs about the importance of repeating meaningless statistics - excitedly, "George Smith has now played 197 games, breaking his previous record of 196 set by his very self just last week". Rod Kafer labours the "special wisdom" thing to death and will not, under any circumstance, criticise an Australian player's performance. He is, I think, president of the players trade union - he shouldn't be offered as a disinterested commentator.

Johhno, funny thing is a lot of Melbourne/Sydney people say the same thing about Canberra, Perth, & Brisbane.

yeah QC i agree... i remember a couple of years back (when the waratahs lost away to the chiefs) the headlines about how boring hamilton was... now the adopted kiwi is trying the same line against south africa... borrring (fingers down my throat...)

Just watching The Rugby Club what a load of bais dribble. I had to laugh at Kafes touch screen segment, funny how everything positive about the weekend he showed Australian teams and anything negative he showed Saffa and NZ teams. I can't believe Marto thinks the Crusaders didn't play that well considering they were one of only two teams to bag a four try bonus point...... then again even we kiwis love to hate the Crusaders yet were not that one eyed we start hallucinating like Marto. I see there's not much faith from the panel and their cohorts for either the Reds or the Force which is understandable. Jeremy Paul saying that Pretoria is the most boring place on earth is classic I laughed so hard my stomach hurt, there is going to be a few angry Saffas out there lol

This is the very reason why the late Clinton Grybas was so highly respected as a commentator in AFL (and other sports as well-re Mundine-Green I; the 2000 Sydney Olympic women's water polo between Australia & the US). Even though Grybas was a keen Collingwood supporter, you couldn't tell what team he was barracking for even when Grybas was calling a game involving the Magpies. Sadly, there are not many commentators who would be as good these days (or even better) than the late Clinton Grybas.

OJ "There’s a difference between interesting facts and criticism of the laws, referees, etc. " I don't have an issue with the commentators calling out what they see as bad/biased decisions as long as they are reasonable. The issue I have with Kearns & co is that there are so often completely & blatantly wrong it's impossible to trust what they say.. "I think a lot of the problem with commentating stems from the fact that they can replay just about anything these days" Agree, the ref can't second guess himself AND it's a lot harder to see what's going on at ground level "Mexted didn’t commentate during the Crusaders/Highlanders game" My bad, I thought it sounded like him. What was it I said about facts standing in the way of a good story ? "The incident you’re talking about was whether Slade caught the ball with his foot in touch or not, and I agree that it’s worth talking about" I thought it was because the mark was called when he didn't catch it, Thomson scored & the try wasn't allowed ? Oh well, facts, story, sheesh…..maybe I should become a commentator.

Indeed. It was only a few weeks ago that folk were writing of their memories of Bill McLaren and the effect his commentary had on their understanding and love of the game. I wonder what any listener (or reader for that matter) would be taking out of rugby at the moment and the effect it might be having on the impressionable.

There's a difference between interesting facts and criticism of the laws, referees, etc. I think a lot of the problem with commentating stems from the fact that they can replay just about anything these days, which means they can second guess practically every decision made on the field by players and referees alike. In the old days, you didn't have the technology they have now and the game continued on. Mexted didn't commentate during the Crusaders/Highlanders game as he's in the dog house for being outspoken about NZFU decisions over the ANZC, which is somewhat ironic given my rant I suppose, The incident you're talking about was whether Slade caught the ball with his foot in touch or not, and I agree that it's worth talking about, but in the same game you had the commentators chipping in about everything from the new interpretations to Carter's sabbatical last season and all sorts of things that assume that people watching the Super 14 are rugby diehards who follow every issue in the game. The commentary wasn't terrible, but it would be like watching NBA and having every play relate to the impending lock-out that's looming on the horizon or an inordinate amount of time spent talking about ATP tour issues during tennis.

One key point which I feel should be focussed on here, whilst it is incredibly annoying for us rugby lovers to listen to the inane comments of the three wise monkeys, imagine how hard it is for people with little understanding of the game to tune in and enjoy a game. If we are contemplating turning the volume down, I guarantee that those with little knowledge of our game are not pausing long enough to even give the game a chance. It's a tough football marketplace, this cannot be tenable if Rugby is to grow in Australia.Another example of the old boys network endangering the future of our game - and damning any number of non-rugby lovers to an eternal afterlife not understanding the game they play in heaven...

OJ - I disagree, a show like the RC can be very beneficial in improving your knowledge & picking up on stuff you may have missed during the game e.g the comments on tighthead being a more tiring position, if that had been expanded on some people might've had more idea of what goes on the front row. As for the commentators, again I've no problem with them calling it as they see it as long as they're both informed & not overly biased. A classic comment last weekend that implied the ref had mucked up without calling him an idiot was Mexted during the Crusaders/Highlander. Adam Thomson missed out on a try as the mark had been awarded while the Canterbury player (Slade) was catching the ball. If you saw the game the ball went straight through his hands but the mark was already being blown. Mexteds comment on the replay was "I was sure you had to catch the ball" or something along those lines. What does annoy me is when they don't let the facts stand in the way of a rubbish commentary.

"It drives me crazy when they commentate on the quality of the game too. If you’re actively telling people this is a poor game they’re watching, what impression are people supposed to get if even the commentators don’t like it" +1 Amen to that OJ, completely agree

Personally, I don't think commentators ought to be giving their opinions about the game on shows like The Rugby Club. I do not want to hear rugby commentators opinion about the rules. It's bad enough that they do it during the game. A whole bunch of rabble about why a penalty should or should not have been given is not as important as the match situation in which a penalty has been awarded. If they can't describe the flow of such an event happening, they shouldn't be commentating the game. I cannot recall any of the good or great rugby commentators of the past criticisng a penalty call. They simply callled it as it was. The big difference between league and rugby in Australia, is that league commentators spend 90% of the time telling the audience how great everything is and rugby commentators spend 90% of the time telling people how bad everything is. It drives me crazy when they commentate on the quality of the game too. If you're actively telling people this is a poor game they're watching, what impression are people supposed to get if even the commentators don't like it? It's ridiculous.

Caught part of the replay of the Rugby Club on Fox Sports last night and it didn't change my opinion of Greg Martin other than it's fallen even further. If this is the best that these former players can provide us in terms of insight, personal experience and analysis then any number of regular contributors on the Roar would literally wipe the floor with all of them. Absolutely pathetic. They should rename the show to "The Rugby Pub" for all the wisdom that those three ex players provided, at least host Nick McArdle was doing his best to keep things on track.

I used to like marto & kearnsy's commentary eons ago but their commentary has just got sillier and less insightful over the last 3 years. I always thought you emplloyed ex players for insightful comments about a game. I suspect they have forgetten what they were employed for. We need some more commentry not colour gents. Commentators of other sports who I've always enjoyed (as I learnt something) are sterlo for league, john madden in the nfl, hugh bladen for rugby and phil liggot during the cycling. Sure, not all ex players but enough insight to break down a situation and explain it to a viewer, whether casual or hard core. Can we have at least one person on the fox team who can deliver this? Please? Pretty Please?

Honestly, if they want to turn rugby around in Australia and New Zealand they have got to get rid of the commentators. Even the NZ commentators sound too much like punters.

My preference for a commentry team would be a straight caller, calls it just like on radio " soso passes it whatsisname" etc a colour commentator (ex-player) primarily there for tactical game knowledge (what teams are trying to do) and a referee or someone that really KNOWS the laws and is current with interpretations who can explain what the referee is trying to do. From my experience explayers don't fit in this mould as they use colloquilisms or are just plain wrong about penalty decisions. Obviously the dynamic between these 3 is important for entertainment's sake but the important thing is the transfer of knowledge to the watcher (not confusing them as some commentators seem to do).

hmm i don't remember that ever being tried