Bowe double ends England grand slam dream

"You have to recall the dominance of that WC pack." So why isn't that happening now? I've looked at the two packs and I think the current one looks slightly more dynamic. Sheridan's a big loss as he's very good a clearing out rucks - he doesn't carry as much as he should though. I feel Cole has had two very good games against Italy and Ireland, both in the loose and tight. "Also, Wilkinson had people to marshall him on the field, and guidance from Catt off the field." When you refer to Flutey as assertive, do you mean by that, that he takes the ball to the gainline more often than Catt? Or that he's talkative and calls the plays, because I would assume it would contradict your previous point if you meant the latter? Also, I got the impression Flutey was going to be calling the plays anyway, doing the 'Catt role.'

Hartley, Cole, Wilson, Haskell, S. Armitage Care, Tait, D. Armitage... that isn't conservatism. Cipriani shouldn't even be in the Wasps side but I do agree about Foden and Ashton.

England suffers from the conservatism of its selectors. Foden , Cipriani , Ashton should all be there. Might still loose but it would be entertaining.

Surely their physique is irrelevant if they play different styles of rugby? You have to recall the dominance of that WC pack. Quick ball was nearly always available, and Gomarsall's pass was/is better than Care's. Also, Wilkinson had people to marshall him on the field, and guidance from Catt off the field. He doesn't have that support currently. With that in mind I don't think the current backline will progress with Wilkinson at 10.

"But Catt is a different sort of player to Flutey, Colin. Flutey is more direct, more assertive. Maybe Flood could galvanise the pair, but I think that if Wilkinson plays then one of them has to go. I would really, really like to see Flood given a go against Scotland." I agree, but the point I was making is that they both have the same type of physique, but the team in the world cup still managed to make breaks and create gaps. I don't necearily think the lack of penetration is down to balance or the fact that there's no big guy to get them over the gainline. I agree about Flood being in the team, but I can't see Wilkinson getting dropped.

But Catt is a different sort of player to Flutey, Colin. Flutey is more direct, more assertive. Maybe Flood could galvanise the pair, but I think that if Wilkinson plays then one of them has to go. I would really, really like to see Flood given a go against Scotland. In broader terms part of the English problem is that some of the players just aren't good enough. For example, Deacon has easily been one of the leading locks in the GP, but at test level he's completely powerless. I would hope that Lawes could fill the Shaw slot in time, but I sincerely believe that he is nowhere near ready yet, thus England are left with Deacon and Borthwick, neither of whom are powerful or athletic enough to dominate test rugby. The same applies to Payne, who it has to be said has been very solid thus far. In reality England are in a bit of a holding pattern until players like Mullan, Hartley, Cole, Wilson, Lawes, Gaskell, Haskell, Croft, Care, Monye, Armitage etc have played 30+ tests. Here's what I'd like to see against Scotland: Payne, Thompson, Cole, Shaw (if fit), Borthwick (Kennedy in an ideal world), Haskell, Worsley, Easter; Care, Flood, Monye, Flutey, Tait, Ashton, Foden; Hartley, Wilson, Lawes, Moody, Youngs, Wilkinson, Armitage

I remember during the world cup that Catt, Wikinson and Tait played together and against Australia, they played very well together. I think we were unlucky (or at least we didn't have quite the composure to finish off the chances) not to score 3 or 4 tries on that day. Austin Healy was also querying who Tait was standing at first receiver at times, but that's what he quite often did in 07. He's a very good distributor, which some don't seem to take notice of. Re: Foden, I don't have any worries about his kicking, but I agree about his positional sense.

Lol. Ugly and boring. Following the Ireland game I have been wondering how I managed to miss the fact that neither Flutey or Armitage had played much in recent months. Now... I'm not using that as an excuse for the loss, simply pointing out that I rather oddly (and I presume other English fans) expected the pair to pick up where they left off last season. That strikes me as rather arrogant in hindsight. I think it's right that Martin Johnson showed consistency with the players, but the English backline simply isn't clicking. Part of the reason may be Wilkinson, but part of the reason has to be Tait. I don't think that Flutey and Tait can function in a partnership together, plus... if Wilkinson is going to play then England do need a big centre to get them over the gain line when Wilkinson is playing so deep he's nearly in the stands. Maybe Flutey and Tait could work something out with Flood, but that doesn't look like happening. I hope that Foden gets a go (despite severe reservations over his kicking and positional play) at Murrayfield.

I think we had this very arguement a few months ago, Flutey, Mauger etc on a 300 post plus thread. Got ugly!

That's a real oversimplification, Terry. Flutey has hardly played since the Lions tour - where he proved his class yet again. A. Mauger has been poor in the GP, but that doesn't mean he's not a good player. Flutey simply never settled into a position in NZ.

My point about Flutey, pothale, was that he is perhaps the only English back who when on form and surrounded by good players could penetrate and galvanise England. I don't think the current England backline has a good balance, and bearing in mind Flutey has hardly played since the Lions tour it's probably not a coincidence that not much is happening. Well done, btw.

Flutey is a flash in the pan .... he is, at best, a journeyman who would not get a run in a S14 side. England would be better served by identifying and developing other talent. Munster should save their money and look elsewhere.

Cracking game to watch and excellent result by Ireland. The scoreline might have been bigger if both kickers had better luck - Sexton missed out on 12 along with his conversions. Three tries to one is an emphatic enough victory, and Ireland took their tries well. What was particularly heartening if that the team fashioned such a strong try-scoring victory despite O'Driscoll being on the pitch for most of the match, and didn't falter when he left it. Ferris was my man of the match even though Bowe got two wonderful tries. It was good to see Keith Earls have a much better game, make a couple of good breaks. I thought Danny Care was a bundle of enthusiasm and put in a great performance. Ireland benefited from him being subbed in the last quarter of the game - a mistake by Johnson in my view. Borthwick's supposed lineout knowledge and expertise didn't shine through - O'Connell, Ferris and O'Callaghan disrupted the throw on a few occasions. WW's comments on the backline are interesting. I thought Flutey was largely anonymous, to the point I'm beginning to wonder is he a flash in the pan? Munster seem sure though, they have confirmed signing him for next season.

That's not strictly true, VC. The England team isn't going out and attempting to simply grind games out, its going out and attempting to play (in parts), but simply hasn't got the experience or control or ability to do either accurately and consistently. Frankly, Ireland is probably better than England right now, and by a reasonable stretch. For all their alleged shortcomings this Irish team has a number of world class performers. What English player could take the game by the scruff of the neck like Bowe did? Perhaps Armitage, but he is out of form. Beyond that there is Flutey but can Flutey play with Wilkinson? I don't think so. IMO the 9-10-12-13 channel isn't right. Regarding Johnson, I think you're overlooking the fact that what he says is media talk, and is probably said to highlight the fact that when England lose they aren't being blown away, which is true. Since the Autumnal debacle a few seasons ago England haven't been outclassed by any side. That said, the games they have lost they haven't looked like winning either, so this team needs to step up.

Ireland played well. Their back line looked dangerous virtually every time they had the ball and their back row ensured it came to them more often than England would have liked. It's interesting to see the responses by various pundits. Everyone knows that England aren't clicking in attack but there's very little consensus on where the problem lies and possible solutions. I read that Danny Care's pass was the root of all the trouble and other writers suggest he had one of his best games. Nick Easter is criticized for his offsides and lack of fitness while others think he has one of the only rugby brains in the team. Wilkinson divides opinion as much as he did before the game. Perhaps the only room for agreement is that Armitage hasn't looked as effective as his debut season and Foden showed more adventure when he came on. Johnson is bloody-minded enough that, if he believes England are on the verge of clicking, he'd be inclined to give his team another run. However, I tend to agree with one of the comments during the Saints-Tigers half time discussion that the mix needs a change even if no individual player is necessarily more to blame for the lack of cutting edge than the others.

Clinical performance by Ireland - credit to them. England, as usual, were excellent at controlling possession, but incapable of doing anything with it. Paul O'Connell is about the eighth opponent in a row to state that his team felt "comfortable" in defence. Johnson's mind is stuck in 2003 - he's forever talking about "being in the game with twenty minutes to go". But we've been in countless games with twenty minutes to go during his tenure - and we keep losing them. He's happy for England to get involved in arm wrestles because his England had the power and mental strength to battle their way to victory (much like Ireland did today). He forgets, of course, that THIS England team doesn't have a quarter of the resilience or confidence or even fitness. So we keep having arm wrestles, and we keep losing them. Hopefully the penny will drop eventually.