Fixing Sydney club rugby

Yo, Yes I do agree with you on your points and I think the problem lies largely with resourcing and geographic coverage that the Waratahs are required to cover. Agree re West Harbour crowds but you will find that side of the stadium is alway empty as the cameras are always on the oppposite side where the crowd sits - which is not facing into the sun. Saying that though, I watched my first game last year at Wests and there wouldn't have been more than 500 there. Sydney Uni vs Randwick - maybe 3000 I guess. If you look at the Western Suburbs in league - there are 3-4 clubs that can canvass this area alone. 2 teams across the entire state of NSW cannot compete. ( I am including ACT here as the Brumbies now look after the Southern Inland Region). I believe we need Melbourne or Force S15 team present in Sydney club rugby to foster a Sydney pathway to their respective teams. Again, if the Rebels used Parramatta or West Harbour as a feeder club this would provide a visible pathway for players in the West and pump resourcing into the club. This is the new world of pro football in that amateur clubs are now required to pay players which is placing considerable strain on clubs. I would argue VFL, WAFL and NSWRL clubs would find the situation all too similar. Godo post tho.

Heya Crashy ... thanks for reading my comments & replying. First, if I can respond to your point about the 'Tahs in the early 80s. Yes - crowds were huge! I attended a NSW v Qld match (when I was in my early teens) at the SCG one night. The crowd was salivating at seeing quality players. Yet, rep games then aren't as frequent as every 2nd weekend as it currently is. I believe that not having the Super 12s/14s on free-to-air tv was a huge mistake. Quality rugby on tv ... for prescribed audiences only. That's a big shame. And if you've seen 'packed' grounds at TG Milner, well, I musta missed that game. They must have been holding a free sausage sizzle or something. But, nevertheless, that is what rugby is in Sydney, always has been, & always will be. I seem to conjure an image of a large (length-of-field dimension) grandstand at Concord Oval, with maybe 3 people sitting in it for a West Harbour game. But I don't understand your point about demographics changing & the drubbing out of strong clubs - trying to work out if you agree with me or not. The clubs I mentioned previously all had the full complement of grade teams, yet were rubbed out. Now, how would Balmain feel if they were told that they didn't fit into the 'greater scheme' of the code because of the need to better rugby in the west'n suburbs? Like I said, place clubs across the entire Sydney basin. How was Hornsby, on Sydney's edge, expected to thrive when they were informed they had no future in top level rugby? This was a club which had a large amount of players & juniors. Could it be that they were deemed a threat to the nursery/catchment of Eastwood & Gordon? You don't have to be Einstein .... As for the NSWRU having a focus on 2010 & beyond, well, sad to say I (& others) have heard it all before. They have been notorious in providing theoretical fixes & improvements, with little or no follow up action. No Rocket Scientists. Demographics do change - couldn't agree more. But Sydney's boundaries are pretty much established - no point forecasting what will occur in future, so plan for what exists now. In essence, We've reached the future. And as much as I dislike gAyFL (ha ha), don't underestimate their planning focus. Their player projections aren't aimed at a quick turnaround - they are looking at 10-15yrs + . I live in Erskineville, where South Sydney train at Erko Oval ... yet all the scoolkids' winter sport participation is Aussie Rules. Sacrilege!! And, alarmingly, I have driven thru many country NSW towns where I notice not a single set of rugby posts in the parks & ovals there, but Aussie Rules posts. This is a great indicator of junior player participation. Now, I wonder if Rugby's administrators are aware of this. I, too, dearly love the game ... but feel that, at Sydney Club level, the folks running it have not properly fulfilled the required needs & necessities to ensure the game's goodness. Nobody wants it to be akin to Gridiron or League, so maintain the traditions & expand participation accordingly. Respect the game, players & participants - & it will prosper. Get kids playing it, & if possible, playing for their local clubs. You cannot have a viable code unless you have player participation. I believe that it all gets down to that- it's the nuts n bolts of it.

Guys, Whilst romantic notions of the past are noble, I think we are being a little dramatic here. I (and friends) have in the last 2 years taken a very keen interest in Sydney club football. I played at school and continue to play a bit of subbies which as you know has some very vibrant competitive juices flowing. Whilst having no idea re the good old days, watching a packed crowd at TG Milner on the ABC leads one to think that club footy is not doing that badly. I don't know how many thousand were at the game but the crowd looked large, the rugby fantastic and the ratings appear to be quite strong on a weekly basis. 50,000 plus or something. Yes we have problems in the west, yes the game still has an image problem of being of the middle classes but when Finnanes or Cutlers were running around for the Dirty Reds, there weren't crowds averaging 25,000 watching the tahs over a period of 4 months. I dearly love the game and have played in both the pre and pro era - I srtongly believe if the game did not turn pro, league would have succeeded in swallowing it up. Yikes - no doubt you are a loyal employee and I applaud the the clarity via your defence of what you guys are doing. I hear that that a focus on the west by NSWRU is a big strategy for 2010 and beyond - lets hope so. Also as an aside, if Melbourne was to use Penrith and / or Parramatta as their Western suburbs feeder club ( like the Force with the Rats and the Brumbies with Randwick etc) this could have a very beneficial effect on player pathways and resourcing into the club system. Just a thought and would be quite interesting to see the Rebels developing and pinching players from under the Tahs' noses. We seem to paint a very grim picture of rugby in this state. Despite the significant quantities that the AFL is throwing around, their participation rates ( lets not talk Auskick pls), TYV ratings, swans attendance and membership numbers are seeing a sharp decline. Balmain now has a club with 6 grades. This wasn't around in the 70's... demographics change...

Thanks for your kind words about my opinion, Wix. It's appreciated. I have never understood how the administrators could justify expanding the great rugby code by deleting clubs, which carried the sport for a hundred years, for the risky inclusion of lesser clubs. This irks me ... to a point where I have little interest in the club scene these days. And yes, an old school mate of mine lives near the lovely Drummoyne Oval & he mentions how terrible a site it is to see junior AFL there, when that ground was once a mecca for Rugby. Greg Davis would be devastated. Apparently Manly won the 1st Grade competition a couple of years after Drummoyne was purged, by having attained the services of 4 former Dirty Reds. Notwithstanding Stephen James & Neale Murphy moving to Wests. What could have been .... Sadly, I believe that the SRU administrators would not give a rat's a*s*s about fixing rugby - in 10-15yrs time, we will be a predominantly AFL state.

Jimbo Well said. I agree with every word you said. It would be great if your comments could be passed on to NSWRU. Incidentally, I recently went to the beautiful Drummoyne Oval early on a Saturday morning. To my horror, the Oval was awash with AusKick kids and parents, whilst outside of the fence in a lonely paddock there was a single game of Wallaroos in progress with a couple of parents looking on. I wept at the thought of the AFL takeover, and the fate that had befallen such a fine club as Drummoyne

Club Rugby's problem is, sadly, on the decline. & The SRU have historically been pretty lousy with administering it. My view is that it was always suffering due to its amateur status, with the potential of 'big things' should that alter. Now, it has gone professional, yet the game at 'grass roots' level is in a paheitc state. Too many people in lofty positions only looking after their own club's interests. They should never have introduced promotion/relegation. Especially at a time when (late 70s/early 80s) when rugby was thriving (due to better international performances & Ella brother interest). All that did was make clubs - who were perhaps at difficult times (ie Drummoyne/Norths/St George, even Sydney Uni etc) lose many quality players, upon relegation, to 1st Div clubs. There was also great player interest in Hornsby, UNSW ... now, many of those areas are rugby-poorer for not having Premier Div profiles. How amateur clubs were expected to survive on those conditions is still beyond me. Drummoyne was a great old club, & I see it still has full player ranks - yet they were booted for Parramatta & Penrith. And Hornsby had a strong club. How is a 2nd rate amateur sport expected to prosper when you demolish strong clubs? Put them all in a competition, across the entire sydney basin. Drummoyne oval is a great ground for rugby, with great facilities ... utilise it. In terms of Parramatta & Penrith (& Syd's western suburbs generically) - what are the administrators doing to combat the growing AFL, soccer & League interests there? The west of Sydney, demographically, is home to many polynesian folks, & therefore theoretically should draw many players. But it isn't happening. Lose that area as a nursery, & rugby union will further decline. All of this is reflected in the demise of licenced clubs - warning signs are apparent, yet no action seems to be inherent. Very sad as a rugby fan. And all occurring at a time when, across the globe, rugby is in a great way. Go figure ...

Sportfreak Well said. What you may have been referring to was the role of' 'tribal instinct' which has been the backbone of club rugby for generations. For example, Easts tribe v Randwick tribe. A well attended game (home or away), with quality rugby, albeit at a slower pace than Super 14 . To see Southern Districts in full flight, playing a running game, having come 'back from the dead', brings tears to my eyes. I hope the same happens for the historical Parramatta club, whose tribe badly needs a lift. Club rugby will never be able to compete with the big money-fuelled professional levels. But they will always be a vital source of talent for the professionals, just as the Subbies are a vital source of talent for club rugby. For those reasons, it is important that the Administrators do everything in their power to support and develop these key backbone levels. Neither Club Rugby nor Subbies are broke, so they don't need fixing. Just improvements. And in Parramatta's case an injection of capital.

easy fly on the wall.... I hardly think a game vs Norths will set the world on fire. Easts vs Randwick the other week was a belter on the ABC. 3000 punters there and some beautiful rugby. The viewing statistics appear to support the fact that people are watching it more than ever. It has higher viewer numbers than compared to the A league (for example) so something must be working. The quality of club rugby now is far better than a few years ago and if you complain about paying $15 to potentially watch 6 hours of rugby then perhaps you need to have a chat with the boss and get a pay rise. I am a subbies player but appreciate Milner and the traditions of SOME of the Shute shield clubs. I like hating Uni though! perhaps leave out the tired prejudices about middle class affluence and leave your league inspired chip at the door champ.

The Woodies were playing Northern Suburbs that day. Must have been an invasion of the metrosexuals from the Cabana Bar.

Yeah again RG I find myself agreeing with you 100%. I read L'estranges piece too & thought at the time that he was quite obviously avoiding all talk of an ARC type comp...& as I've said previously, I agree...I think JON is on the right track in having 3 tiers of pro/semi-pro rugby (+ the heartland of subbies), with the emphasis being on an expanded Super comp with at least 1 more team from Sydney...for mine I'd have Syd North (War/Man/Nth/Gdn), Syd Central (Ran/Uni/Eas/Sth) & Syd west (Wood/Parra/Harbour/Prth). Comps that make sense geographically will work. I know this is not to everyones taste, but if you think longterm I think it'd work.

Appreciate the honesty, but it does prove my point & I'm sure there are many in Coogee and surrounds that agree with you...Just a pity that is but a mere speck on the Sydney rugby map...

But it's not the equivalent of the Toyota Cup and never will be; it's the equivant of the NSW Cup in League. Go and see a Wentworthville or Newtown game and you'll see part-timers playing for the love of it and small match payments as well.

Unfortunately I have to agree with Fly on the Wall. The quality of the Shute shield is terrible, particularly in comparison to the Toyota Cup. In order to grow, the quality of the game has to improve!

I agree. I think rugbyfuture makes a good point above by saying that change is coming, but it might not be in the way we'd expect. JON's plan to get a quasi-national comp started via an expanded super comp is about to happen. Maybe a national comp of some kind will eventually develop, but it may not include the club structure as we currently know it. For now though it's clear what the NSWRU thinks if you saw Jim L'estrange's intro tothe first issue of Rugby News this year: he referred to the Shute Shield as the third tier of Australian Rugby at least once every second paragraph.

Great memories Mick! I might head there with my two pre-school aged boys tomorrow for the game against Manly :)

"expensive European cars and the accompanying air of self-righteousness." At Millner? Are you serious? It's Toyotas, Fords and Holdens. The only air is of beer, sausage sangas and abuse hurled at the ref!

expensive european cars and accompanying air of self righteousness at eastwood? are you sure you weren't drunk? since you're not a rugby type how do you judge the quality of the first grade? why don't you go find these other sports which arent broadcast and come back to me, why does channel nine broadcast league when aussie rules is around? and the a league?

Oi! Fly on the wall! Ya can't say stuff like that about Milner! I have four adult children who grew up scrambling under the stand for dropped coins and competing for the theft of corner posts at the final whistle, during their childhood in the '80s. They and their mates went on to Colts, Grade, Club Captaincy, fourth graders for 10 consecutive seasons, nude runs, bannings for inebriation, spontaneous hatred for those mongrels from Randwick and derision for the poofs from Gordon; and are now captains of industry, brilliant professionals, fine tradesmen and intelligent beyond comprehension. I put it all down to their schooling in life, every second weekend at Milner. And the nutritious pies they used sell there.