The current tangent taken by opponents of the Central Coast bid, that there are already a surfeit of teams in Sydney that Central Coast residents can readily access, is possibly the biggest fallacy in expansion discussions today.
Other contrarian opinions include the thought a Central Coast team will dilute the fan-base and sponsor availability from existing teams, and that a cashed-up Newcastle can cover the Coast.
Actual travel times debunk the myth about Central Coast proximity. If people believe south-east Queensland is competing with the Central Coast for one expansion slot, note that it is far easier to travel from Ipswich to Suncorp, or Brisbane to the Gold Coast, than it is from Gosford to Brookvale or the SFS, the two ‘closest’ grounds to the Central Coast.
Via public transport it is under one hour from Brisbane to the Gold Coast or Ipswich to Suncorp. By comparison it is over two hours from Gosford to the SFS and nearly two and a half hours to Brookvale. Even to Newcastle’s Energy Australia Stadium is over one and a half hours from Gosford.
Therefore, residents of south-east Queensland already have two teams they can readily access by public transport, while the Central Coast have none. And public transport times, not car or direct kilometres, are the key to NRL plans, as mentioned by David Gallop.
The easy mass movement of fans is the only way to ensure potential mass support for a franchise.
In terms of sponsors, the vast majority of sponsor dollars are coming from Bear heartland in northern Sydney. These companies will not sponsor Manly (and vice-versa to be fair) and hence Manly are not ‘missing out’ on corporate support, while Newcastle effective immediately are in no need of hand-holding.
The Bears are accessing corporates who will only involve themselves with rugby league if a team is called the Bears and play in red and black.
Therefore if the NRL are attracted to the calibre of sponsors the Bears will bring to the table (many of whom are publicly unknown at this stage), they will be made fully aware that they will withdraw from the game if the Bears are not admitted.
Overall, it would bring a net gain of sponsors to the game. The North Sydney-Chatswood-Nth Ryde triangle represents the third-largest corporate zone in Australia and is currently unrepresented.
In direct contrast, the multitude of south-east Queensland bids out there continue to cannibalise each other in the search for corporate support.
The NRL’s Broncos and Titans, A-League’s Roar and Gold Coast United, AFL’s Lions and Suns, and union’s Reds are also competing for the relatively small south-east Queensland corporate pool, and the Titans are a new and fragile entity.
It will be a challenge for these south-east Queensland bid teams to convince the NRL they will have no difficulty securing sufficient corporate support over a long timeframe, and that they will not harm the Broncos or Titans.
The advantage the Bears have with fans, as Souths have proved, is that traditional multi-generational fans will not switch teams. To say that northern Sydney people would simply follow Manly or another team is a myth.
Instead, they have switched codes to union and AFL – to do otherwise would betray their roots and community identity.
This process would escalate should the Bears bid be rejected. David Gallop estimates the loss at over 40,000 thus far. To increase NRL patronage in New South Wales the only option is to include the Bears.
As for the Central Coast, the Northern Eagles debacle ensured that Manly would never be widely popular on the Coast – it took the Bears, despite their historic ties to the region, 10 years of community involvement to gain acceptance.
South-east Queensland bid teams by contrast will have to convince the NRL they are not diluting the fan base from the Broncos or Titans – a difficult task to prove.
Nathan Tinkler’s buy-out removes the perception that Newcastle was a financially weak club in need of protection. Newcastle and the Bears would have a competitive friction exactly like the Mariners and Jets, between two distinct regional communities.
Both will be energetic and local community-focused franchises – dream NRL models.
Nathan Tinkler has said he wants to turn everywhere north of Manly into Knights territory, but to do that he would have to play at least half the Knights home games at Gosford and change the colours to red and black, as well as being called the Bears when playing in Sydney.
For someone that is appealing to the close knit community of Newcastle, this won’t happen – makes for good PR however, which was the whole point. The Knights will be concentrating their resources in the untapped region north of Newcastle up to Coffs Harbour, not south. That’s Bear territory.
The_Wookie
Roar Guru
cause 2 AFL teams, a HAL team and a Super Rugby team, an NBL team and even a netball team (IIRC) dont make it part of Australia already :P
yewonk
Guest
central coast do deserve a team but not by these clowns they would not know how to make monoply money never lone real money. they bring nothing different than what penrith or cronulla are. no talk of being a super club or huge crowds or growth of the game, they cant be stuffed when its wet. they should go back to the drawing board.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
Queenslander I understand from where you are coming from. However ,Lewis & Miles stayed in qld and were not swayed by Packer's money to go to Manly.You can probably blame the Raiders for grabbing players,like Meninga,Belcher and Jackson. Comparing the SL takeover(a whole league) with Qld players coming to a NSWRL comp,is like comparing a Walrus with a fairy Penguin .The money involved,the players involved,the disillusionment,the movement to other codes.I could write an essay on the subject. I have a problem with football clubs relying on pokies ,always have.Cronulla in fact is one club, becoming even less reliant on the one armed bandits.Thus you won't get an argument from me on that one. You stated the NRL makes sure the Qld clubs don't get a leg up over the Sydney clubs.Huh! We get every friday night and tonight the Bronocs on FTA,as we do get a NRL Qld team on every Friday night either delayed or live.How the hell are Sydney clubs getting a leg up with MNF. Let's put it this way.Should the Brisbane 2 bid meet the requirements of an expansion team ditto Perth and CC,and the NRL via the I.C.decide on expansion,then you will get your wish. The trouble is with the Brisbane bid,i have seen little as to member numbers,or home ground ,and the fact they are behind the other two bids,is hardly encouraging ATM. BTW I suggest that it is understandable the disasters that have befallen Qld and the financial problems as a result.The financial situation of a not insignificant number of people in NSW is also worrying.Living costs here have skyrocketed,hardly assisted by many years of an incompetent Labor govt.
Queensland's game is rugby league
Guest
There's an article in the Townsville Bulletine about the Cowboys' poor crowd performances. Apparently there's been a problem with the system that scans each fan's ticket upon entry of the stadium. There's some anecdotal evidence to support it in the comments. http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/04/18/224411_news.html Ticket pricing is very high in Queensland. This is another reason why people tend to watch the games from home. If you want a good seat at a home game for the Cowboys then you have to pay the following prices: Western 6,7,8 & 9 $58; Western 1-5, 10-12 $48; Eastern 113-123 $48; East 110-112, 124-126 $38; East 210-212, 223-225 $38; East 312-316 $43. Compare that to the much lower prices that you'll pay at Shark Park: Et grasshopper upper $45; ET lower/southern GS $35; Peter Burns stand $27. Stadiums Queensland are to blame for this. The Bligh Government needs to realise that most rugby league fans don't have the resources that are available to rugby union fans. The poorer fans cannot afford to go to the games anymore because it's too much. A struggling family would need to spend well over $100 to take their family to a game. People who are living week to week cannot do it. The Cowboys would survive if the cap was removed. There's just too much support for them in their community. The local businesses would pull together to keep their team alive. This is much harder for the Sydney-based teams because there is 9 of them needing corporate support from Sydney's businesses. The Titans are doing very well for a new club. Most new clubs lose lots of money during their first 5 to 10 years. "Look I am all for a national game,but you don’t come in at midnight and “rape and pillage’clubs in order to do so,as SL did" Isn't that what the NSWRL did to the BRL for decades? Remember when it was illegal for sports clubs in Queensland to collect revenue from pokie machines but legal for NSW sports clubs to do so? This allowed the NSWRL to raid the BRL into the ground. Then they went for the kill by bringing in the Broncos and Giants/Rockets. The Sydney-based clubs are starting to struggle because the situation regarding pokie machines has either reversed or is planned to be reversed. The NRL makes sure the Queensland clubs don't get a leg up over the Sydney teams. Typical favouritism of Sydney. Please understand why I have no sympathy for the Sydney-based clubs.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
And you believe all the qld based clubs would survive without a cap.Brisbane yes.Cowboys doubt it and the Titans still work on a budget and Searle would hardly be a fan of open slather.He is an accountant after all LOL. I heard somewhere that if a salary cap was removed ,the NRl comp would have no more than 6 teams. Look I am all for a national game,but you don't come in at midnight and "rape and pillage'clubs in order to do so,as SL did.And yes I supported SL ,as the Sharks went over to that comp,but that is the only reason.More so for Pay TV,which was one of the motivating factors. i in fact attended the very first SL game at the SFS :Sharks v Raiders Wait a minute the Perth Reds were one of the first clubs to go over to SL in 95.The dumb airfare and accommodation decision I understand continued when they played in 96. The SL war involved money being thrown around like confetti by News for starters.How else would an average first grader like Stev Edmed received reportedly 5-600,000 bucks pa.And he was one of many.The ARL under pressure no doubt from Packer and the ARL survival,opened their vault and spent the $20m they had for a rainy day on players ,to keep them in the comp. Contracts for ARL players meant nothing as they switched to SL. let me also clarify a couple of points. 1) I am for expansion Perth,CC and a 2nd Brisbane side.The first 2 in 2013,the latter if not then ,2015. 2)In today's telegraph,apparently the QRL are investigating why Qld NRL crowds are falling.So it is not me coming up with something out of left field. 3) I am against relocation unless a club is in dire straits,not because someone from qld thinks so for the expediency of expansion.. Champ we continually get thrown at us,that Qld is rl central and they clamour for NRL games.If that is so in a city of 1.2m,30,000 average,you can't bag Sydney clubs with inferior facilties and a pro rata smaller pop base 9 clubs in 4m, on which to draw. Yes crowds in Sydney should be better,and so should facilities.Try standing on a hill went it is hissing down rain at penrith,Cronulla,Manly,Illawarra and even Jubilee or Campbelltown.
Queensland's game is rugby league
Guest
The only reason there's a salary cap is because it keeps the Sydney-based clubs alive. "The SL was a good idea! Really $400m down the proverbial plughole.For what? A leg up to the other codes and sending people off to other codes.A stroking of Ribot’s ego." Super League had a vision to nationalise the game and set up a credible international footprint. Murdoch had the means to do it. The ARL didn't. That's why Queenslanders supported Super League. Queenslanders were sick and tired of having every grand final played in Sydney. There was a time when the Broncos had to play all of their final games in Sydney too. Even when they were the minor premiers. I don't blame Super League for the ARL throwing its money down the toilet. The ARL chose to take the battle to court because they were more worried about controlling the game than they were about spreading its footprint. The ARL cared more about keeping Sydney at the top of the game than anything else. They brought the Reds into the comp in 1995 but had them foot the airfare for every Sydney-based team that had to play an away game in Perth. If you think that's good management and good for the game then I'm sorry but I cannot view you as being anything more than a biased NSW rugby league fan. Why do you attribute all of the financial loss during the Super League war to Super League? Why don't you lay the blame on the ARL for throwing it away? The old dinosaurs in the ARL wasted all of that money because they wanted to remain in charge. It was all about them. Super League's original goal was to have a Super League competition run after or in between the regular ARL season.This would have allowed the original clubs to survive in the ARL and allowed further expansion to take place in the Super League. It would have raised the earning capacity for the players. The ARL objected to the idea because they wanted to retain control over the game. I do like the idea of a salary cap. What I don't like is the way it's set just low enough so the weakest Sydney-based clubs can stay alive. This punishes clubs like Brisbane. You end up with Brisbane investing lots of money in their junior system because they are unable to hoard a team of established champions. Clubs like Easts Roosters poach the talent that the Broncos have moulded into NRL superstars. The Broncos compensated for producing the talent that the public likes to watch? Teams like Easts should be forced to compensate the teams they rely upon for talent. You talk about the Broncos not filling out Suncorp Stadium. The funny thing is their best attendances are drawn to the games between the Cowboys and Titans. Crowds in excess of 40,000 are the norm when the other two Queensland teams play the Broncos The lowest attendances come when the Broncos play the weaker Sydney teams. This says to me that the people of Brisbane are crying out for more local derbies. The Reds are not drawing as many people to their games as the Broncos. You only have to look at the season openers for both clubs to see the difference. The Broncos drew 45,000 to their game against the Cowboys. The Reds only drew 26,000 to their season-opener against the Force. The Broncos did draw as few as 24,500 against the Panthers, but that was on a Monday night. The Panthers aren't exactly a high-drawing club in Queensland. God knows how few people would have attended a game that was played on a Monday night between the Reds and an unpopular team. How many people attend the local derbies in Sydney? The Bulldogs can draw 30,000 every now and then, but not very often. The ANZAC Day game can draw around 40,000, but that it should since it's a special occasion. Even the crowds for Newcastle aren't that great. Their crowds should be up around 25,000 to 30,000. Instead they're as low as 12,000 on some occasions. Newcastle is of a similar size to the Gold Coast. Newcastle is a heartland area. The Titans are drawing higher crowds. Yet you reckon Gosford is ripe for expansion and south-east Queensland isn't? I cannot understand your way of thinking. I think both areas are ripe for expansion.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
If there was no salary cap QGis rugby league ,there would be few teams around and you would have the farcical situation of the top 3 dominating year in year out.Oh and many supporters switching to other codes ,as happened with the Bears.The country has a small population,and money is limited by comparison to the US and europe. The Broncos are punished because of Cronulla being in the comp LOL.The 3rd party opportunities for the Broncs are there to be utilised.The opportunities with business interests once a football career is over are to be utilised. Are you going to blame the Sharks for the Broncs being on top so far this year ,sheesh. Salary caps were brought in just like they are in other codes,to keep clubs solvent(which is something every league should aim at) and to give all clubs the opportunity to be competitive. if you believe the Sharks are just sitting idly by to be relocated or sacked,you are being deluded.Having attended the information night and the EGM re the new development proposal,they are hardly sitting on their hands.And pray tell,should this development put the clubs in such a financial positiion as to compete with the likes of the Broncos,it would look rather silly relocating them. If you believe having a SOO quality Broncos side winning year in year out is good for the game,when we have such a competitive sporting environment, then you are kidding.It may have been ok in the 60s . The Broncos are a one city club and @ they should have the biggest crowds and b) they should be packing the place out every home game,which they don't.More so when they are talking a 2nd Brisbane team.Cripes even the Reds are getting as good if not better crowds,yet the Broncs are at the top of the table. Reality check time.Brisbane has 5 times the pop of the Sharks area.By extrapolating they should be having 5 times the crowd average,meaning 55-60,000 instead of the 30,000 they currently secure,in the best rl stadium in the country.someone needs to get off their backsides. I am aware of the situation in NTHQld.But their crowds last year prior to Yazi were dwindling.The Titans ditto. The SL was a good idea! Really $400m down the proverbial plughole.For what? A leg up to the other codes and sending people off to other codes.A stroking of Ribot's ego. Getting a team in melbourne was the correct thing to do,but even Ribot did not have the nouse to understand when you do it,you get deeply involved in grassroots development.instead of leaving it to 2005 thereabouts. You may know a former Fairfax journo by the name of Geoff Prenter of RL Week fame and rl fanatic,when the SL won the court case he tootled off to the swans, where last heard he was deeply ensconsed. I now understand the point people have been making,that the SL war affected NSW rl fans to a far greater extent than Queensland ones ,who seemed to be immune from the coal face debacle and infighting in NSW.Your argument reinforces their view,and offers little except showing selfishness, is a two faced sword.
Parkridge Panther
Guest
Calamvale. The article is about the distance the CC suporters have to travel to watch a game. and using it as an excuse for CC to be given the green light for entry. Transport being free has nothing to do with it. I am aware that transport to BB and GC games are free. It still tyake over an hour or more to get to a BB or GC game.
Queensland's game is rugby league
Guest
Crosscoder, How many of the Sydney-based clubs would survive if there was no salary cap? The reason there's a salary cap is because the Sydney clubss are unsustainable. Clubs like the Broncos are punished for being a success in all areas of the game just so teams like the Sharks can stay alive. Why should Queensland keep on propping up Sydney's unsustainable clubs? Super League was a great idea. The only reason there was so much fall-out is because the Sydney-based clubs were selfish. If I recall correctly the NSWRL's long-term plan during the 1980's was to allow as many Sydney clubs to die as possible so that more teams in other areas could be bright into the game. The only reason the went back on their plan and started going on about "tradition" is because they were scared of Rupert Murdoch gaining control of the game. Last time I checked the Broncos draw the highest attendances in the NRL. They even outrate a few AFL teams. Not bad considering they play most of their home games on a Friday night, which is when their games are televised live into Brisbane on Channel 9. Their crowds have been growing each year for almost a decade. What more do they have to do? The Cowboys are struggling with crowds because the bulk of the North Queensland area is recovering from a once in a century tropical cyclone. The Gold Coast is averaging about 17,000 or more per game. Not bad. Better than what many of the Sydney-based teams are able to manage. To suggest that Sydney should contintue to field 9 clubs in the NRL s insane. There isn't the demand in Sydney for 9 clubs. IF you don't beleive me then remove the salary cap and see how long they last. The poorest clubs would be out the door real quick. The Queensland teams would remain because they can pay their way. Why should Queenslanders have to travel to Sydney to play for a club? They deserve to play for a Queensland-based club. Manly SHOULD relocate. The sooner the better. The arrangement they had with the Sunshine Coast was working out quite well untilt he NSWRL threatened to ban their juniors if they didn't field a team in the NSW Cup. Get over it Crosscoder, NSW isn't the centre of rugby league anymore. It never was to begin with.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
Written and authorised by a true Queenslander,the very state in which the seeds of the SL war were sown,to the detriment of the game and the monies wasted.The ARL had $20m plus in the bank ATT. If there is anything to learn from the war,slash and burn and moving clubs and alienating supporters is not the answer. If there had been no SL war,I venture to guess the rl fans attending ,would be greater today than the current figures. I humbly suggest that the Queensland clubs do a tad more in getting there attendances up,then and only then they may be in a position to argue about more teams. As the crowds for Penrith,Manly,Cronulla,Raiders,Parramatta have hardly been earth shattering,maybe they should all relocate LOL,sounds as realistic as the great cull being advocated.
mick h
Guest
the national competition in png has just grown from 8 to 10 teams for this years competition. i believe in the future we will have 20 teams all existing plus cc bears / perth 2013 and brisbane 2 and central qld up to 2017 and in 2020 a png side and 2nd nz side it will become one of the premier competitions in the world played in conferences.
mick h
Guest
your facts on crowds are wrong average in sydney this year close to 18,000
Maggie of Erina
Guest
go the bears! love their weekly membership drives and the way they mingle with the community. they have done a splendid job too with various charities and events. hope they get into the nrl in 2013!
Fez's are cool
Guest
there is a rumour doing the rounds that the Brisbane II bid team may cut Ipswich's grass - they have identified 4 locations for basing the team, but have only named 3 - redcliffe, southbank and redlands. The Brisbane II mob may try to set up in the Ipswich Logan area, but keep it secret until they submit their bid.
Queensland's game is rugby league
Guest
The derby between the Cowboys and Broncos drew a larger crowd than any of the derbies between the Sydney teams.
Queensland's game is rugby league
Guest
Beowulf, What I like about the Central Coast Bears bid is it takes a foundation club out of the congested Sydney area and gives them life in regional NSW. Gosford will appreciate the Bears more than North Sydney ever did. The game benefits from adding a team to a heartland area that will come under the radar from rival codes. The NRL needs to add a team to central Queensland, Ipswich, Logan and Sunhine Coast. We need to secure these areas now because the AFL is on the door step. They set up a Lions social club in Logan and are trying to draw juniors from the area. The other week they ran a big festival at one of the Aussie rules parks in Springwood.. If the NRL sits back and allows the AFL to do this without putting up a fight then it's stupid. Logan is a large area and it is rugby league heartland. The population of Logan is 277,568. That makes it bigger than the entire Sutherland Shire (219,828). Parramatta has only 167,431 people. Logan is a growing city too. Its population will increase over the next two decades. Logan needs a team NOW. If that means relocating the Cronulla Sharks to Logan and renaming them the Logan Sharks -- I'd call them the Logan Bull Sharks as there are heaps of bull sharks in the Logan River, but Logan Sharks is fine -- then so be it. The NRL needs to cull some of its Sydney-based clubs. Manly have to go. So do Cronulla. Relocating the Sharks to Logan and sending the Sea Eagles to Sunshine Coast allows Perth, the Bears, Central Queensland and Ipswich Jets to enter the competition.
bilbo
Guest
Attendances have increased by 150% in the last 10 years - australia's population has not increased by anything like that...
Stanza
Guest
I believe the WA Billionaire Andrew "Twiggy" Forest is the likely Owner or invester in the Reds. He is a RL fan and also helped with Rusty's Rabbits get Greg Inglis in a third party agreement with his company. I don't think the WA Reds would struggle as much as you think and early signs from Perth visits of the Rabbits could amount to 15000 per match. Whilst not in the same figures of AFL it is worth growing the support on top of that. I do agree with you on having another QLD team either Brisbane or Central QLD.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
They are quite happy where they are presently located.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
Propped up by whom? Their bank,not the code. Allow the club to die!,obviously not one from this side of the border,nor one who has lost a club.Let the club continue with the development application ,and if that doesn't succeed ,then consider relocation. Let the other new club applicants get in on their own merit.The 2nd Brisbane side hasn't even got a supporter base up and running,nor training base.The Broncos crowds and Titans of late arenothingtowrite homeabout. The last line is unadulterated nonsense,as the 3A development application lodged with the DPA priorto the new state govt cut off date suggests.