Aaron Cruden a better kicker than Dan Carter?

By RuckinGoodStats / Roar Rookie

Graham Henry commented last week on Aaron Cruden’s place kicking as one of the reasons he was selected in the All Black squad.

Media comments in New Zealand have recently pointed out that Cruden had a higher Super Rugby kicking percentage than Dan Carter.

To an extent, they are right.

At the end of the Super Rugby round-robin Cruden’s placing kicking success rate was 80 per cent or 36 from 45 attempts, and Carter was 72 per cent or 50 from 69 attempts.

As astute Roar readers have commented, the success rate doesn’t take into account difficulty. This is true and so I compared the difficulty of each of Cruden and Carter’s kicks to see if there was a difference.

I can undertake this as I have a database of place kicks from the last ten years from a variety of competitions and professional rugby union kickers. From this, due to the volume of kicks taken, a probability of success can be calculated of another kick taken in the same circumstances. For example, if 73 per cent of all the kicks in similar circumstances are successful, then you would expect the kick to go over 73 per cent of the time, in the same circumstances.

My database provides a map of the field so the element of difficulty such as distance, angle, conditions can be applied. The database differentiates between conversion and penalty attempts as there are differences in the probability of success.

When I looked at the probability of success (POS) for each one of the kicks for Cruden and Carter (Super Rugby round-robin) it was clear that 33 per cent of Cruden’s attempts were in front of the posts. As you would expect the POS for these kicks is 95-100 per cent. Carter only had 12 per cent of his attempts in this 95-100 per cent POS range. Unsurprisingly, both kickers made those kicks.

Determining their first miss working back from the goal posts, which decreases the POS, coincidently they both missed one of their attempts in the 80-84 per cent POS range.

What is interesting is that just over half (56 per cent) of Cruden’s attempts are in the 80-100 per cent POS range, compared to Carter’s attempts where only a third (33 per cent) are in the 80-100 per cent POS range. You have to go back from the posts to 65-100 per cent POS range for Carter to have the majority (54 per cent) of his kicks. So clearly applying difficulty, a real difference between the kickers has emerged.

Looking at kicks that have a 50/50 or lower POS, Cruden has taken fewer attempts in this area, 18 per cent, compared to Carter having 38 per cent of his attempts in the 50/50 range. Carter also attempts more difficult kicks. He has had two penalty attempts that had a 25 per cent POS range, getting one of them.

Whereas Cruden’s most difficult kick was a conversion miss where the POS was 35-39 per cent.

To be fair to Cruden, eight of his attempts were in the 50/50 POS range where he’s got half of them. Carter also got half of his 26 attempts in that 50/50 range. So both players are similar in converting attempts into points from this range.

Henry also said Cruden had been place kicking better in the last couple of weeks but from my analysis he has had the same type of kick difficulty in the last couple of week as all season, so I can’t agree.

However, I don’t keep data on whether his kicks for touch or back in the field of play are longer as Henry stated.

Clearly if over half your kicks are in relatively easy spots to take, you will have a higher kicking success rate than someone taking more difficult kicks. That is what Cruden has had this Super Rugby season. Taking difficulty into account, Carter has had the more difficult kicks and will also attempt harder kicks, based on this year’s Super Rugby.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the Tri-Nations and Rugby World Cup games, where Cruden might not have a captain asking him to kick easy penalties or team mates running the tries under the posts.

The Crowd Says:

2012-09-19T10:25:16+00:00

ivano

Guest


cruden is bertter than carter

2012-02-13T22:12:35+00:00

Claire

Guest


I'd really like to join Rucking Good Stats because I'm doing a research paper on kicking but I'm ashamed to say that I cannot find anything on the website that will let me join. Can anyone help?

2012-01-31T09:59:32+00:00

ivano

Guest


js he is beter than carter

2012-01-09T09:12:47+00:00

ivano malgas

Guest


like 2 c sbw vs nonu this year

AUTHOR

2011-07-03T18:10:22+00:00

RuckinGoodStats

Roar Rookie


Call me a nomad or call me lots of other things, if someone wants an article and I can do it justice, then they get it. However I don't want to use this for as a promo so think where else would there be a place that wanted two Oz kickers and isn't commerical with real good blokes.

2011-07-03T05:38:17+00:00

Orka

Guest


Very very interesting. Thanks, really enjoyed the interesting stats. I'm sure everyone would be interested to see what the Carter v Steyn v JOC v Cooper stats shape up like. Will you be posting those here, or can we get an idea of who the "other outlet" is? ;o)

2011-07-02T12:52:33+00:00

Damien

Roar Guru


That programme sounds pretty hardcore. Looking forward to seing the results when its up and running. I'll try the SBW v Nonu comparison myself. Hopefully there is some good data out there thats free..

AUTHOR

2011-07-01T12:11:31+00:00

RuckinGoodStats

Roar Rookie


Clearly I need to widen my databases because mine can't answer this. I did check on a couple of other sites and this is where differences start showing. superrugby.co.nz has these guys with 11 linebreaks each yet rugbyheaven.com.au doesn't have them with this many. So there are problems when you try and compare this type of detail, so really stick to things that are more team related with a couple of indivdual stats such as goal kicking. Sorry, but only so many hours in the day. Can tell you am working on a pressure and momentum scale that is in the middle of testing and programme starts getting excited when the conditions are right for defense to be broken or points to be scored. Haven't quite got it to the stage when we fully understand, read this to mean its now smarter than its makers and that a little scary!!!

2011-07-01T11:00:16+00:00

Damien

Roar Guru


Very informative article. Nice Work. You must have some bad ass databases. What sort of info does your database provide ? Just wondering if you can do a SBW v Nonu Stat comparision. Most rugby people I chat to go on about how Nonu is the best power runner/ tackle breaker that NZ has. And that SBW can't match Nonu in this facet of play. A quick check of the Fox Sports stats say that from 12 games Nonu broken 29 tackles with 8 linebreaks and SBW has from 13 games broken 42 tackles with 7 linebreaks. Are you able to do a more detailed analysis on the head to head for Nonu & SBW like run metres, line break assists, turnovers, and anything else that could shed a little light on who will get the 12 jersey. Of course I'll give you credit whenever I rehash the numbers to my friends when trying hard to look like an informed rugby analyst.

AUTHOR

2011-07-01T05:48:23+00:00

RuckinGoodStats

Roar Rookie


I wish I could have slapped a table in the article so that it hides even less, it would also add to the forum discussion. Just happen that it was recieved as well as it was.

2011-07-01T05:29:17+00:00

Steve

Guest


I Love it most "experts" spout off their opinion, often based on not much at all. Noticeably this is the first piece I have read on this site that hasn't end up with a heap of porocail BS from supporters on each side arguing the toss. And although stats can often hide other factors (as this article proves) I find there is a real lack of stats for Rugby on the web. So if you have a hunch or opinion it can be very difficult to back it up with anything concrete. And I think MickyB took my friendly jibe a bit to literally, Hopefully more media outlets take notice to your attention to detail and it spreads.

AUTHOR

2011-07-01T04:57:15+00:00

RuckinGoodStats

Roar Rookie


The challage is writing it up and hitting the word limit.

AUTHOR

2011-07-01T04:56:17+00:00

RuckinGoodStats

Roar Rookie


Postnote. Been contacted by a outlet to do a piece on Carter v Steyn v JOC v Cooper. Just about halfway through that.

AUTHOR

2011-07-01T04:54:38+00:00

RuckinGoodStats

Roar Rookie


LOL I have a pretty good balanced life and this is just like a small hobby. Think of it as a outlet as I have a pretty stressful real job where I am an international expert and this helps me clear my head. Just hope the wife doesn't read this...;)

AUTHOR

2011-07-01T04:51:45+00:00

RuckinGoodStats

Roar Rookie


Agree with the faith in the Captain, but this can work against the kicker as the Captain calls for a attempts from a more difficult position. I think JOC this season has had it happen to him on occasion. Yes it can be adjusted and does for different comps, but for professional players there isn't too much difference and that the benefit of a huge database of kicks taken you can check for such an effect. The benefit of Roar is I can post the type of stats pieces here. I had pitched them all to major media and they were interested but passed. The Roar is a great outlet for things that wouldn't get published by mainstream. Plus who knows after a while and enough people commenting on it the left side might take notice.

AUTHOR

2011-07-01T04:46:43+00:00

RuckinGoodStats

Roar Rookie


Cheers. Sometime kicker won't get a choice such as a conversion from the sideline. It does depend on the kicker, the conditions and the ground. Sometimes they have a crack at a distance because they have landed a few already. But I would say that the 65-70% range is the opimium for a establisdhed kicker in the competition. I believe McCaw know where these spots are on the field and seems that he is penalised in spots (last kick v Reds excluded of course) that are out of the optimum for that kicker,

2011-07-01T04:21:25+00:00

MickyB

Guest


"What is interesting is that just over half (56 per cent) of Cruden’s attempts are in the 80-100 per cent POS range, compared to Carter’s attempts where only a third (33 per cent) are in the 80-100 per cent POS range." That's the difference between playing for the Hurricanes and playing for the Crusaders yes? Nice article. Ignore Steve. :)

2011-07-01T01:57:51+00:00

Steve

Guest


Mate awesome Stats it is awesome to have hard facts to backup something most of us often suspect when comparing stats. But dude you really need to get a life :-)

2011-06-30T23:16:10+00:00

MattyP

Guest


Love it. As B-Rock said, a risk-weighted completion percentage would be fascinating.

2011-06-30T22:55:46+00:00

B-Rock

Roar Guru


As always, great article RGS Makes sense that the better the kicker, the more faith the captain will have in them making difficult kicks so will attempt more difficult kicks. Tends to drive overall % back towards the 70-80% range for all kickers. Without getting too technical, could you risk adjust or POS weight the various super rugby kickers to generate a true kicking %? FYI I am liking the more thoughtful statistical analysis appearing on the Raor in recent months from several roarers... shame the "experts" on the left hand side of the page dont do as much real analysis

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