Defending Sydney's sporting crowd figures

Ian Whitchurch. Again you tell only part of the story ,success does help crowds no argument,but weather condtions ,facilities and tranpsort factors also have a bearing.And with what is happening around the world economic conditions affecting the individual.You tend to look at only one factor. Have a look at crowds when t is hissing down raiin.The Swans when they played a semi at the ANZ stadium a couple of years ago ,got just over 19,00,yet we are told the fans are welded on regardless of the weather Else how the hell would Cronulla's crowds this year be higher than last year,when they performed poorly,when they played many occasions in pouringg rain. Come off it Ian.The Super League war had been infull swing from the early days of 95,when the Warriors played in Auckland right through to 96,then the full blown 2 comps in 97.If that wasn't a gift horse for the Swans and the thas,then nothing was. .You have trouble in seeing the obvious correlation between the sudden junp in crowds by a large margin,and the impact of Super league in your eyes has little bearing,My experience by speaking to long tem ARL club supporters tells me the opposite. I will repeat one more time,the crowds at ANZ stadium are tracking smaller than they were,since introduction.Suggesting perhaps,the fans prefer the SCG.They had far bigger crowds then at ANZ... I am not arguing,which you overlook, the average crowds NRL v Swans.9 teams v 1.But if you wish I will throw in the continuously poor FTA ratings in sydney for the club.So some sting has been lost,if one opens their eyes. You ignore the trend from the high of 2007,to a gradual deceline to 2011,despite the club being in or around the top 8.Where did they go,they didn't jump to FTA as those numbers are dropping. Rugby league has many decisions to make,one being expansion,two being a Tv deal that reflects the no1 Tv ratings position.three being better facilities and

Crosscoder, Sydney crowds are strongly correlated with on-field success. regardless of code. Importantly for Swans crowds, 1997 was the year after the Swans made the Grand Final. You're also having trouble seeing just how crap the Swans side was from the late 80s to mid-90s. Finally, Sydney vs Collingwood, at ANZ in 2011 was the biggest crowd at a home and away game in Sydney which isnt much of a "lost their sting". There were four bigger-grossing home and away games in rugby league. http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=5251 http://stats.rleague.com/rl/crowds/2011.html Rugby league has a decision to make about crowds - does it do something about getting more bums on seats, or does it continue with a decades-long campaign of self deception ? From your posts, you're picking the latter.

Ian Whitchurch. And I expect you to look at the figures over the total number of years and in cases the mitigating circumstances (due to RL infighting) ,plus the crowd variations since the SL war.I also expect you to look at the amount of promotion work,PR,FTA TV that has been on offer for decades.To ignore the totality ,the SL war is hardly being grounded in reality. I have on a previous threads provided the averages over the years since their first arrival.The poor average figures from 82=96 are blatantly exposed for all to see,prior to the SL rumblings.I like to disseminate figures over a period . Then if you are suggesting that the crowds have increased over the last few years the figures paint a different picture. The largest crowd average secured by the Swans to date was 1997,the very year of the two comps SL and the ARL: 35,818. .The figure gradually dropped to 26,614 in 2002,just before Norths were outed in 2003,and that very year the average shot up to 33,198. From that year the crowds the crowds gradually increased to 35,632 in 2007. In 2008 they averaged 32,834 In 2009 averaged 30,505 2010 averaged 30,675 in 2011 26,615.(1 more than 2002) A drop of 18.94% s in 4 years.Please show me the increase? If the crowds had shown a continuing increase since 97 ,you would have a point.The 2011 average is the 3rd lowest average since the SL war of 97. Now I understand with respect to you,as being also a facts and figures man,I propose one doesn't have to be Luigi the Unbelievable to see a trend since 2007,nor the fact the largest average crowd for that club was in the very year the SL war played out on the field.It has not been exceeded since. I further submit the crowd averages were assisted by big blockbusters at ANZ stadium,which of late have lost their sting. If you continue to deny that large sums have not been expended or exposure secured for that club during their 30 plus years of existence,then you are ignoring vital aspects of the debate.The club has been in the semis or close by for quite some time,that should asssit any club of any code.. Let me also humbly suggest the crowd averages are still admirable,but let us not kid ourselves,as they are one club representing the whole of NSW,with a fortnightly local exposure . And please don't use that argument for the Storm,with 13 years,lack of exposure,SL roots,salary cap debacle. BTW I am au fait with rl crowd averages.This year they dropped by .04% ,compared to far larger drops by other codes. Should the Bears be reinstated ,one could also ask whether that by its very nature have an impact on their crowds.Because I have had the misfortune(being grounded in reality) of meeting on the odd occasions due to my career ,former Bears'' supporters who ditched the code and followed ru and the Swans. My reality suggests disillusioned supporters have crossed the great divide,temporarily ? Time will tell.

Crosscoder, "Fact after 30 years ,with all the promo ,money spent on PR and FTA availability ,the crowds have not increased.the so called numbers that have swapped to AFL are minimal after this peroiod and with all the assistance." No, that isnt fact at all. I expect Johnno to make stuff up, but I expect you to remain grounded in reality. http://stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/swans.html

My ten cents for what it is worth. I have watched Union and League in Sydney and Melbourne at the major venues. I have watched League in Sydney at local grounds. Sydney is murder for travel compared with Melbourne. I follow Wests Tigers here from Tassie but I would think twice about going back to Sydney to watch them. It is a pain in the ass. The AFL has the advantage of playing at major venues close to the city. Apart from the SFS Sydney is a bloody nightmare.

Funny you should mention Kim Jong ll Always interesting to note that North Korea has better access to the big games than some states of Australia. From a good article in the Telegraph a couple of years ago...... http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/dictatorships-and-holiday-isles-get-origin-live-but-not-sa-and-wa/story-e6frexv9-1225739610369 DICTATOR Kim Jong Il has held the world to ransom, but he can get it. Robert Mugabe has run roughshod over a proud nation, and he can get it. And while the Dalai Lama abhors the brutality on show at ANZ Stadium tonight, he can get it, too. But if you happen to live in Adelaide or Perth - forget it. While viewers in new markets like North Korea, Zimbabwe and Nepal will enjoy live coverage of Origin II, the very two Australian cities being targeted for expansion have been given a colder shoulder than that given to UN weapons inspectors requesting entry to Pyongyang. Audiences in Western Australia and South Australia will wait up to two hours to watch tonight's league showpiece, which is being telecast live to more than 60 countries abroad. The transmission glitch comes as the NRL tries to re-establish itself in both Australian states, with Adelaide and Perth having hosted matches so far this season. But the promising groundwork has been undermined by broadcaster Channel 9, which relegated both cities to the bottom of the national pile on a score of live Origin coverage. Even Tasmanian league tragics will watch the action unfold as it happens, while Victorians also will be spared a late-night show after the game is up. Origin's live appeal is even strong enough to penetrate the Iron Curtain of communist North Korea, where the Australia Network will go head-to-head against State-sanctioned propaganda with a full broadcast at 6.30pm tonight. The NRL might have lost its self-proclaimed emperor Denis Fitzgerald last month, but despot Kim Jong Il could well fill the breach given that he rates television - alongside uranium - as one of his personal passions. Other conflict hot spots around the globe also have been earmarked for live coverage. The Democratic Republic of Congo and Zimbabwe are beset by civil unrest, but will get a first-hand view of mate-against-mate Australian-style this evening. Origin is also expected to be a ratings hit in Pakistan, where the TV-hating Taliban are spreading faster than swine flu, while a wet track also could win fans in monsoon-ravaged Bangladesh, whose marooned citizens are tipped to overwhelm Queensland with a flood of support. But the icing on the cake comes with live coverage into the Maldives, which has been at the centre of a global tug-of-war between sports administrators for decades. A few years ago ARL chairman Colin Love did the hard yards for rugby league, bravely parachuting into the uncharted turquoise waters of this Indian Ocean archipelago to spread the game's gospel. At the time, Love insisted the trip was a fact-finding mission - despite the cynics who screamed "junket". Now the method in his madness has been revealed, with dozens of honeymooning couples handed a welcome break from endless love making and coconut daiquiris thanks to the Australia Network's relentless commitment to Origin. "The situation's ridiculous, although it's an improvement on what we usually get in Perth," WARL boss Bill Nosworthy said. "Two years ago it used to be shown much later, so at least we're heading in the right direction."

Soccer, League and Union pay for the stadium by filling it with spectators.

It is all so unfair. Last night 26,500 watched the Melbourne A-league derby in a stadium paid for by the government which NRL, soccer & Union did not have to contribute 1cent for. There they were, all having fun in a stadium with cover at an event that Sydney doesn't even have. And the only reason the crowd was big is because Melbourne people don't go to the water or park or theatre like they do in Sydney. It's all weighted against Sydney!

Its called a generous Sydney media,and a non protective one at that.A fair and balanced sporting media,compared to a highly protective one.:- This was best exemplified up by a correspondent in the australian:- "Whenever there is drama in the AFL,all the protagonists and main players rally together for the good of the code,arguing that not one isolated incident should not be allowed to besnmirch this great game. While the blood-letting runs unchecked in sydney,in Melbourne everyone is holding hands and saying its time to move on,often before the fight has even started". Believe your code's publicity blurbs if you wish ,and Brereton's announcement.Always good for a laugh. Maybe the drop in Swans crowds(for the whole of NSW fortnightly) and the continued drop in the Tv ratings is an indication a growing number of their fans have found sampling the delights of Sydney and the beaches,are more of a convenience and perhaps enjoyment. .I mean if they are rock solid,they would stay so after all being at the game is the big thing for that code.Or maybe they are waiting for the colossus of the West,to switch their allegiance. At last reports the Nepean/Hawkesbury river system held water for recreational use is hardly 2 hours from Blacktown.There are 70 harbour and ocean beaches in the sydney metropolitan area.. If you believe comfort and cover are not a consideration for people not attending the code on a regular basis,then you are out of touch with the reality.Oh and BTW I consider myself a rl tragic,but will not travel to Penrith or Manly due to traffic conditions and the time facto and poor facilitiesr.If more cover and better facilities was available the crowds would further increase.That is why Manly has been trying desperately to get state govt grants(like a team which was not even up and running was able to secure). If any proof is needed to support my views on the locale being important for NRL games,an example is the St george v Sharks local derbies always played to packed houses.IOW people will travel short distances to local derbies ,but many refrain from travelling longer distances. Yep good old Pay Tv ,which no doubt the AFL would kill to have the ratings domination the NRL has to date in that medium. The GWS ,which includes Canberra ,if that is part of Greater western Sydney,then the AFL has redrawn the map.Why not include Bourke. Maybe you should have quoted Kim Jon Il.Tell people what you want them to believe day and night,and they will be adherents,in a short space of time. Unfortunately we have had the so called spectre of AR for decades,and it is a case of been there done that,next please.The only thing haunting Sydney is some of the overblown hype and arrogance , that is thrown up by GWS publicity machine.And of course seeing Sheedy smugly smiling in a publicity shot. We are now being told that GWS will be the biggest team in Sydney.If BS was battleships,the US 7th fleet would be swamped. I believe you stated you left Sydney 25 years ago,you obviously did not experience the lovely sunshine hidden behind the beating showers and winds at Shark Park on saturday and monday evenings in 2011.It would pay to check on the prevailing conditions as to the effect they have on crowds with little cover. Perhaps you could ask Manly why with little cover on a monday evening,they got just over 4,500 in atrocious conditions,and yet you deride cover and comfort,as somehow being irrelevant. Even the swans not that long ago barely cracked 19,000 in wet and windy conditions for a semi final at AN Z stadium.But but ,,the crowds we are constantly told,will go regardless of the weather in Sydney. Now a little on gergraphical spread. Sydney greater metro area 12,145 sq kms melbourne 7,673 sq kms A little fireside reading http://www.thepunch.com.au/article/trams-might-fly-melbourne-gets-the-jump-on-sydney http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/34734.html http://blogs.the australian.news.com.au/jackthe insider/index.php/the australian/comments/melbourne_puts_sydney_in_the_shade

This is all so unfair. AFL is getting all this publicity in Sydney - & Sydney Swans average home attendance in 2010 was only 26,615. And most of those were ex-Vics who never go to the beach, or parks, or theatre. Meanwhile the poor NRL supporters have to stay at home watching Pay TV because there is no shelter at the NRL grounds. At the same time most of Sydney are enjoying the lovely sunshine, esp on Saty a/noons (when no NRL games are played). And now there is the GWS Giants, who are probably going to attract 10,000 at hone, whilst all the NRL supporters in Blacktown, etc are driving 2 hours to the beach. To misquote Marx: A spectre is haunting Sydney - the specture of Aussie Rules!

Or watching Iron Chef or some other cooking show. Or reading Brereton's latest bembarrassing comments on Fox.

Xman .I am hardly concerned nor should I be surprised you form a part cheer squad for AR. I have pointed out many issues including poor transport infrastructure and comfort and cover at grounds.It is a combination of many things.We have beaches at our doorstep.You name Bell's beach.I can name twenty in the Sydney metro area. Maybe the thought of 30 years of hype and monetary expenditure resulting in falling AFL crowds in Sydney and TV ratings ditto.The game is hardly a new kid on the block. Embarrassment can be a two way street. Three cheers for the Iron Chef perhaps.

AR. Get into the real world of Sydney,if humanly possible. Just look at the appalling road infrastructure and spread of the city and poor public transport,the lack of comfort and cover at many of the grounds,before you call it a p...ing contest. Care to compare these facilites .or is this just the ranitngs of a so called "parochial Sydneysider" versus might i say a paroochial Melburnian. I know you are trying to be pathetically pedantic,by using the Bridge climb as the only form of entertainment on a saturday afternoon,but we have plenty of things to do on a saturday afternoon within our local confines,without the need for travel on choking roads. BTW rugby league crowds are well up on the 90s and were marginally down this year not as bad as other codes. Why should I be embarrassed if the crowds are holding firm,the Tv ratings are belting the opposition.When AFL crowds in Sydney are down and Tv ratings ditto.Maybe that is embarrassing.

Fitzy. Fact.Sydney's road infrastructure,public transport by comparison to Melbourne, is a shambles.Melbourne was a planned city ,public tranport to the G. Fact,Sydney people have had a tradioional sporting sporting diversity,have done so for yonks, and I have lived on the Southern beaches a lot longer than I care to think about.SAydney people expect a level of comfort and cover,which is not provided by many of the NRL grounds.. And how are all the river tributaries that run into Port Phillip Bay,and the sheltered aspect of that expanse of water.. Fact after 30 years ,with all the promo ,money spent on PR and FTA availability ,the crowds have not increased.the so called numbers that have swapped to AFL are minimal after this peroiod and with all the assistance.the tv ratings falling add further to that view Fact 16 years ago there was a SL war,which disillusioned thousands of rugby league supporters. You stated only selected games have been shown until recently.The game itself has been shown on saturday afternoons for ages .OIf that is not publicity,then I did not type this post.Fact is the numbers of epeople who swapped over to AFLwere hardly of titanic proportions.The game has been around in Sydney for ages,in some shape or form,there is hardly a stampede. You keep seeing people make up figures and outrageous statements.Have a look at Dermett Brereton's latest comments,and do a little cringing.Some of the BS that has come out of AFL over the years is mind boggling. Examples such as rl is dying,Queensland is a football(AFL)( state,rl has few juniors on the Gold Coast.Who writes their script,embarrassing. When AFL people are given NRL TV ratings figures,some call it BS,yet are quite happy to quote Tv ratings for AFL Grand finals when suited.Flexibility the name of the game. And the Storm will be a success based on your example with youngsters.But of course we will get the usual bunch of Vic naysayers who reckon it is /will be a disaster.

Sydney.... AFL news..... very confusing. Most people in Sydney would struggle to tell you what position Adam Goodes plays.

10,000 at Sydney A-league last night. No doubt everyone in Sydney was at the beach, or having a picnic...or maybe at home reading the latest AFL news!

I grew up in Syd Nth Beaches, you RL supporters just don't get it, you ignor facts and keep falling back on TV stats to justify every argument. Fact melb is built around a BAY, they surf, fish, swim etc. Fact melb has as meny theaters, museums and art gallerys. Fact prior to rationalization of grounds melb suburban teams were spread over melb and still got more crowds. Fact Syd fans are not people who swapped to AFL, they are made up of kids who played the game, who were given free season tickets 25 years ago and now have grown up, have families and support what they grew up with. Up until recently AFL games didnt get shown in syd only selected games at odd hours. I keep seeing people making up figures and numbers and making outragous statements to justify their point of view. I like RL, i go to storm games I love the Swans because all those years ago the swans let me see their games for free. GWS will be successful, there is a 12 year old or 14 year old who will get hooked (more junior afl teams today then when I was a junior) and 25 yrs from now a family that will follow them. RL wont come to an end because of that.

All I was pointing out is that people who enjoy surfing will drive 90 minutes to Bells or woolami because the surf is the best in the country. It doesn't matter if it's cold or not. People who aren't fussed about surfing will go to the beaches on the bay that are on the cities doorstep. People who love fishing, sailing and diving will also use port Philip bay or western port bay. The snow fields are much more accessible in Melbourne than Sydney. The arts, fashion and shopping are also top notch. As AR says, your excuses are embarrassing. Just accept that the city you live in loves staying home and watching TV.

Melbourne suffers from classic Second City Syndrome. Always has, always will. Melbourne needs to have a collective cup of tea and a lie down.

This colonial p!ssing comp is fairly old hat CC... Not only is the "we go to more museums and art galleries" argument silly, but its plain wrong as shown by my post above. Residents of Melb, Bris and Perth go more often than people from Sydney. And Sydney folk are not the only people in this great country who go to the beach...or fish...or (gasp) go to parks! And...the Bridge Climb..?!!! Is that where all the locals are on a Saturday afternoon? The stadiums are empty because the locals are frantically going up and down that crazy bridge!! Please...these are just silly excuses from a clearly parochial Sydney-sider. The FACT is: Sydney is by far the biggest city and has the worst sporting and cultural-event crowds in the country. There might be a range of factors that contribute to that fact (as set out by this article) but it doesn't change that fact. All the arguments about waterways and fishing opportunities and boat ramps are just embarrassing.