Socceroos lose to Denmark

Fuss - Thanks for your reply with it's 4 point strategy in how to solve a problem that to the best of my knowledge (& participation) has been with Australian football since around 1973. Problem - How to get football education to our"grass roots","junior football",call it what you may. Getting back to your 4 point strategy,there is very little wrong with the content other than the fact that your "steps" are totally inverted for when constructing anything,a building.a pyramid,or in this case a strategy, it is advisable to start at the foundation level for if you don't get that right the structure will surely fail. From some of your other offerings I know you are aware of this, for without the 6-11 year old kids getting the best available "coaching",that is the proper environment to learn & develop the necessary skills,the overall plan will fail,end of story. You seem to be paying great lip service to that well expounded theory that good players will make good coaches, nothing is further from the truth & there is little evidence in Australian football to countermand that statement.To take on a job coaching Newcastle Jets(used as an example) has a certain attraction,not to mention an attractive salary, but to coach an under 9 team has no "glamour" at all & yet it could be debated strongly that a good "junior" coach is actually contributing far more to the future of the game than anyone who holds tenure at an HAL club for 1 or 2 years before the owners/board/committee take umbrage & sack the "saviour" they employed just those 2 short years ago.Get where I am coming from? That brings us to the expenditure undertaken by the FFA in it's attempts to solve this problem. In its 8 year life it has spent millions of dollars in coaching salaries alone.Most of that money has gone into what I term elitist programs that sees these same coaches,(who, IMO, should have been employed to ensure their great knowledge percolates into the very basement of the game),traversing the world,living in great conditions, accompanying teams, which to date have yet to produce the goods where it matters,on the field. To me that is ignoring the obvious and I think you are too intelligent not to agree Don't get me wrong,the "problem" is not an easy one to solve for who in their right mind wants to coach a team of kids you may ask? but then again that is not the root of the problem ,it is how to ensure that the countless volunteer coaches, mums & dads gain the knowledge that will affect the base of our pyramid. That has NOT been happening and the announcement today of the SAP & JWF plan may be at last recognition of where the "great cure" has to begin.I could go on but I don't want to bore you. Your mate jb

Fuss - what you mean by "new" is a system that has been itemised and laid down as a document in 2009, right?, even though the ideas contained therein are at least 40 years old. There was a similar programme envisaged in 1973 backed by the Rothman's tobacco company but ,,as was usual by the upper management of the time (the same people that chased Frank Lowy out of the game), it was,after every state had it's own qualified coach,and had started local programmes to develop coaches,allowed to "wither and die on the vine" so to speak. Let's make peace on that. However have you noted that just today the FFA has made an announcement on a partnership it has struck up with the John Warren Foundation to produce a "Skills Acquisition Programme to try and ensure how they will get education through to players in the 9-13 age group. Note the ages well. One problem does not get explained and that is how this programme will work,but that will make interesting reading and we can but hope for success. jb

"Mate, I’ve confronted that attitude from ARF fans since the day I first kicked a football in Australia nearly 40 years ago. " haha and you're suggesting that it's ME playng the victim here. Oh well, good luck with all that insecure hypocrisy.

And here I thought this thread was about ??? I forgot, what was it about? .... oh yeah, Socceroos loss to Denmark and now we have discussion, errr, well rumour and in-your-endo about BB going to NM and DG to FFA!!! For-crying-out-load I think we've entered the twilight zoooooooooooooooooooooooooone. Please let the Euros begin NOW so we can talk about roundball football.

Fuss It is beyond question that FFA are doing a better job than Soccer Australia ...this is at a National level ... Yes and double yes it great and I have posted so many times ... BUT and this is what posters like Mel Cro become ... """Mad as Hell"""... what are the A-League teams doing ... yes they run a youth league ... but the NSL clubs had teams from Under 9 ... and the NSL clubs played these teams in Division 1association competitions... only the Mariners do this of the A-League clubs and the Mariners have gone a stage further in that they develop the coaching standards for the association rep teams... I think what JB is saying is at some stage we need to acknowledge what was well done before but also copy what they did.. it was the knowledge from many of the NSL coaches that developed people like Dukes ...

jb My use of the adjective "new" is obviously causing you a lot of grief. I'm referring to "new" as in - as far as I know - there has never before been a formal document - like the FFA National Football Curriculum - which clearly sets out a clearly defined & consistent approach to football development in Australia. If such a document existed in the period 1977-2008, I stand corrected. Of course the benefits of the teachings in the National Curriculum haven't yet seeped down to the local parks in the suburbs across Australia. It would be ridiculous to think this would occur within 3 years. Heck, the teachings of the curriculum haven't yet seeped across the HAL coaches! Last season, apart from Ange & Arnie, I don't think any of the coaches were adopting the teachings & strategies of the National Curriculum. I think this will dramatically change next season. The way I see it the steps on our journey to "real football nation" are: Step 1: Identify a need for a National Curriculum to clearly define how football development should proceed in Australia: TICK Step 2: Create a National Curriculum by drawing upon experiences of the world's best football nations & adjusting the Curriculum to suit the Australian football culture: TICK Step 3: Educate the elite coaches, so they are able to disseminate the information & teachings contained within the National Curriculum to our elite footballers: Ongoing (Okon, Vidmar, Edwads) Step 4: Educate the Community Coaches, so they are able to disseminate the information & teachings contained within the National Curriculum to community footballers: to be completed So, the way I see it, we are up to Stage 4 of our "new System". Once our community coaches are indoctrinated into the "new system", we'll finally become a real football nation. But, this may not occur for the next 10-20 years. Why? Because it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks. So, we may have to wait for the kids, who are currently 10-20 years old & are growing up with the "new system", eventually joining the coaching ranks, when they are 30-40 years old. Imagine when we have a whole generation of coaches, who know nothing but the "new system" of football outlined in the National Curriculum.

JB Mate how can I applaud more loudly .... not to your level I accept .... but I have been involved in playing and coaching for so long I forget... Over the past 20 or so years it has been my pleasure to play with some former first squad players from teams like Apia, Yugel , Meltra and recently from Marconi .... three of the players I played with for their time held the most senior coaching certificate you could get... They helped me develop a greater understanding of football, touch, shape styles.... eg how does a short slow back defend against a tall much faster striker... That it is only recently we have developed an understanding about shape is insulting to many ... Fuss not having a go at you .. I completely agree the FFA have made huge improvements to the national talent identification program, further the money being poured into keeping our best, at the various stages of development etc... however to assume recent developments in some was not known or practised is simply wrong... it was not done on the scale or with the focus on one method before... Marinus ("Rinus") is the father of total football and with Ajax he won the European Champions League of its day with teams of somewhat no names ... Marinus belief and every successful manager since has followed his system [from the 60's & early 70's] ... TIPS TIPS stands for, Technical.. Intelligence.. Perverseness ... and Speed... each was weighted the same and a player needed to score a minimum in each level with a certain top score... JB is totally correctly FFA are doing it better [much better at a national level] however to assume this knowledge and understanding was not there is totally wrong... it needed as FFA have done to be directed to say those old NSL clubs and their coaches did not appreciate this is simply wrong... Football people did this and the Liverpool system of when the ball is lost everyone behind the ball and when one everyone push off their marker create space and show for the simple pass... its the degree FFA and the media now promote it rather than it was not know or practised..

Fuss. You are entitled to your opinion and I would never deny that but a man of your intelligence should know that the only thing "NEW"about this much vaunted philosophy is the amount of dollars being poured into the effort. Two things have to be remembered, (1) If it is accepted that the best learning area for skills is between the ages of 6 to 11 how many of the incumbents in that age grouping are getting the best of conditions,not to mention education, to assist them in the gaining & maturing of those skills. To the best of my knowledge kids of that age are not allowed into the AIS so it has to be said that the AIS is in fact an elitist programme for those in the higher age group ,who may have the necessary physical attributes to play full sided games,& thus gain entry, but then what has to be done with those who may not have those physical attributes but may be far more advanced in the skills & vision for the game.COULD THAT BE THE REASON FOR THE SCARCITY OF PLAY-MAKERS IN OUR GAME? (2) Your constant use of the word "new" to describe a philosphy based on 40 or 50 year old knowledge.You may disagree but I can say that the ideas in this philosophy have been around for years and the only credit that should be given is that the FFA appear to be willing to spend these increased dollars in an attempt to improve the status quo but I am yet to be convinced that this increased expenditure is having an effect in that all important age group of 6-11 year olds which is where the grass roots of the game are to be found & is the basis for our future. jb

Ooooh you poor little petal, Australian Rules (referring to the poster & the sport) "Keep up the “us vs them” attitude…" Mate, I've confronted that attitude from ARF fans since the day I first kicked a football in Australia nearly 40 years ago. To see you trying to play the victim ... oh my gosh - how the sporting landscape has changed ... Johnny Warren was certainly right - he told us so!

There's 2 obvious differences between the baseless rumours of the licence handback of CCM and MH: 1) Those rumours came on the back of the most tumultuous period in the A-League's history...i.e GCU being stripped of its licence and Tinkler handing back his. 2) AFL fans were not leaping onto the Roar to gleefully announce it. Keep up the "us vs them" attitude...it seems to work for you.

"Perhaps if we acquire an autocratic government that outlaws all sports except football, we might get a bunch of super athletes peaking at roughly the same time. " Here we go again the athlete mentality. Read Kasey what I said above about England & Football being a magnet for the best athletes. I then went on to indicate this is obviously not enough,because England with everything in its favour still cannot get the football success it craves. Every year in England the best athletes are in football have been for decades. Every year that percentage will always outweigh the best athletes from every sport combined in Australia. Yet we still see England fail at major tournaments. Roy Hodgson is now proclaiming they will have to be defensive minded at the Euros in order to progress & succeed. Once again an athlete is not a footballer. An athlete with better football skills will always be superior to an equal athlete with inferior football skills. In reverse an inferior athlete with better football skills will always be superior to a better athlete with lesser football skills. Stanley Matthews,Maradona,Messi & countless other world class players hardly the image of the supreme athlete. Even Pele himself. Your above statement should read "Perhaps if we acquire an autocratic government that outlaws all sports except football, we might get the pick of the best athletic talent in Australia who if taught the fundamental skills,technique & tactics of football stand a chance against the other nations who have been applying these principles for decades "

Have to say I agree to an extent with you. I don't follow the national team very closely but in the Denmark game what I saw was pretty good. We looked well-organized and were always looking forward with our passes. We were quite direct but it was more high tempo, one touch direct football than route one long balls. As an admirer of Borussia Dortmund, the German national team and Liverpool under Rafa Benitez; pressing, high tempo football is my cup of tea. Does anyone else find Spain's tika-taka tactics beautiful but insanely boring? Now, obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder but in the interests of growing the game in Australia I'm glad we're going for the German model and not the Spanish. It suits the physical players we produce. Let's not forget too, that Denmark are a talented team. Eriksen is going to be a big, big name. But that's where the good part ends. We might qualify for the WC with this ageing squad but what good will that do in 2014 when the players are even older? What's the point in having the A-league if we stuff it with foreigners and only pick players for the national team who are based overseas? The reason European national teams do so well is because they have continuity throughout their national competitions right through to the national team. Spain's players are basically Barcelona. Germany's side is built largely on Bayern Munich and now Dortmund, and except for Ozil, Khedira and Klose all the rest play in the Bundesliga. I can't think of a single player in the Australian team who plays together with another Socceroo in the same team. There needs to be continuity from the club systems right up to the national team. Osieck needs to take a chance on A-league players once(if?) we qualify for the World Cup. I don't know what the FA are doing for youth teams but I can only hope that our young kids are training in small sided games to improve their touch and that we have academy systems at all A-league clubs. If you combine that touch with the physicality Australian's are reknowned for we could produce something similar to Germany in 10 years. Right now though, I don't see much hope for the future once our 'golden generation' die off.

So, it seems the rumour - which was so prominent on Twitter yesterday that "@Atkinson_Tom" became one of the strongest trending topics in Australia - has been found to be baseless. Just like the Twitter rumours about CCM handing back its HAL licence, Melb Heart handing back its HAL licence, etc. The rumour was generated by a sports broadcaster in Perth. I have no reason to believe he is anti-AFL.

For the record, here's what Demetriou said TODAY: "North Melbourne are on track and doing every everything required of them this year as part of their disequalised funding." "Their membership is up, they've employed the people they said they would, they're on budget, they're going well and that's a tick to the board and to the CEO."

Good one Fuss'. Railroading a football thread into a discussion about AFL. Sometimes we really are our own worst enemy.

The worst aspect is that Fussball has been caught out making up a story about a club being insolvent, just made it up, tried to pass it on as fact, on a thread that has nothing to do with it in the first place. Absolutely nothing has come through anywhere on this point, despite his protestations, and it just boils down to being a reprehensible act and the poorest form of behaviour possible on a sports commentary site. And the fact that you would go into bat for such low brow behaviour reflects poorly on you as a forum participant. Like redb, I too came out to openly criticise Palmer for his poor treatment of fans (and players) - I can't think of anyone who applauded him on this forum, except, oddly enough, some soccer fans.

jb Your final paragraph sums up what I was trying to say. In my opinion - remember, it's only my opinion - we can expect better results from the new FFA system/philosophy of Football from kids, who have been exposed to the system at a younger age. So, I would expect a kid, who was 12 years old in 2009 to be better equipped at showcasing the new FFA system/philosophy than a kid, who was 16 years old in 2009. I expect the kid, who was 6 years old or younger in 2009 to be the "finished product" - i.e. these kids will have had their whole football education under the new system. I'm sorry, I can't explain it any better than that.

I'm just blown away by the hyprocrisy of some soccer fans on the Roar: - People like Fuss cry "leave us alone" whenever there is negative press about their sport. - But they openly rejoice when other codes encounter any difficulty. The sheer delight of Fussball is embarrassing...and ironic. Such base-level schadenfreude always reveals one's own deep insecurity...and contains as much credibility as an assertion that Paris has a population of 2 Million. But more to the point...the talk of the Kangarroos being "insolvent" is actually muckraking gossip tweets from a Perth journo. The Roos have ALWAYS struggled for money compared to ther bigger clubs...and last year they still had over 30,000 paid members and averaged over 25,000 to each game. For the smallest, poorest club in the comp...they are figures the A-League could only dream about.

What produced our golden generation? I’m willing to put my chips on luck. Luck and the happy coincidence of some talented children of the post WWII-migrants who likely influenced their offspring's choice of sport coming of age at roughly the same time. One thing is for sure. Only Mark Viduka learnt a substantial amount of his trade here in Australia with Melbourne Croatia before heading overseas – being an accomplished marksman in the NSL prior to heading O/S. Players like Harry/Bresh bogged off as soon as they could and they for the most part learned their trade away from Australia. The golden generation were a outlier not the norm and I doubt we will see their likes again in our lifetimes no matter what the national curriculum is changed to. Perhaps if we acquire an autocratic government that outlaws all sports except football, we might get a bunch of super athletes peaking at roughly the same time. Of course that isn’t likely to ever happen, so I think those of us that saw them at their peak should just thank the football Gods and learn to realize that we as a country are hardly likely to reach those peaks again:( We are likely to asume the role of mid level football power in the short to medium term. causing the occasional upset and perhaps uncovering a gem of a player that propels us to occasional success. We have been blessed to watch them play football together.

Fuss - Did you read my offering or just the parts thereof that back up what you are suggesting". Let me explain that. You, like many others, have this intrinsic belief that some magic wand was waved over our coaching in 2009 that is going to somehow change our players overnight. What you appear to overlook is that this system that "started" in 2009 was being taught to boys already in the program at 2009 & that means ALL age groups at 2009 were IN the program,so the under 16's in 2009 are now under 18's & AE said their had been marked improvement over the last few years. Now to this "new" system and what we hope it will achieve. I ask you one question. What makes it different from the system that produced our Golden Generation?. What is "new" about 4-3-3, a system, as I said, being used in the game after 1958. What is "new" about the "small - sided games" which were introduced into Australia in 1974 & which many of the GG have confirmed was part of their junior coaching. Why is AE so "upbeat" about the new generation when his boss ,H Berger, only stated publicly about 5 weeks ago that he was disappointed with the progress being made & in fact appeared to have got one of the founders of the Coerver system of coaching (established in 1984 in the US) to come in & consult with him,H Berger that is, about his problem. All this appears to be contradictory to what you are trying to sell but for a reason I suspect you do not know you have been correct in one assertion, that of when a "graduate", as you term them,should start to appear. In the early 60's an investigation into junior sport took place in an educational establishment,not in Germany or Holland, but at Loughborough College in England.Their findings in team sports were quite revolutionary for it was learned that up to the ages 11-13 a youngster did not psychologically accept the concept of "team" sports.Kids younger than this liked to "kick the ball" or "score a goal" & that was their main reason for taking part. After this age group a realisation that they were in a team meant that how they "used" the ball in order to win a game took over as the motivation &,based on these basic findings the coaching fraternities around the world developed "small sided games" on "smaller pitches" thus encouraging the greater propensity to learn ball skills in a tighter area while retaining the overall aim of acting as a team.The move onto large pitches & exposure to tactical football was to happen when the kids physical and mental capacities were attuned to such conditions, thus 12-16. So you are right,if our "new" system is to be proved successful a kid would have to progress through all aspects of football education but that again raises the question,how did the GG manage to attain such high levels in the '70's and '80's????? if our system then was inferior to today's multi-million dollar set up. I await you consideration to the above FACTS. jb