The ref bashing needs to stop

The fix is the challenge system (without first referencing a replay), which carries a four point "deposit" i.e. an unsuccessful challenge takes four points off your score* Boots would very quickly change feet when it's the coaches in the cross hair for wrongly challenging or failing to challenge. *I'm not actually advocating use of this system.

GO THE EAGLES The way i see it is that technology is not working (video ref), go back to one ref and the rules before two ref's and video ref, if they cant get the correct result with modern technlogy then why use it and have this war of words between. captain, coach and ref. It worked before and if there was a wrong call so be it, you just got on with it and tried to redeem the lost ground or points through penalties, with hard grit of playing football with the determination to win. Games were lost and games were won with the wrong call and i have been there many times to see my team on the wrong end of wrong decisions and i must admit have seen my team gain good ground and points with wrong calls against the opposition, also i think on many occasions the ref has seen that he has been wrong and made up for it throughout the rest of the game to right the wrong. As far as captains speaking to the ref on field, only the captain should approach the ref and it should only happen when a penalty has been given against his team, or to clarify a decision that the on field ref has made and him alone against a team member and not for a decision that the ref or video ref has made by awarding a try, the coversation between the video ref and the on field ref is between them and them only and once the decision has been made by them then that is law and no one can change it, but the ref's boss and the coaches can question the on field ref' and video refs decision's after the games. If a captain of a team does question the ref about a video ref's decision then he should be charged with descent, the refs control the games rights and wrongs, not the captains, or for that matter any team member as you do see where half a dozen players are in the refs ear trying to put their opinion forward, it would be like being in a turkey pen. This is my opinion anyway and i am sick of all the crap that is going on between players and refs, "GET ON WITH IT" GO THE EAGLES.

Go and tell the Cowboys and NSW to admire and support the refs hahahahaha im sorry but if you make a mistakes so bad ike they have been making then there should be consequences and its the scrutiny and media attention.

I agree the ref bashing must stop. But I also agree with much of what Dave has said about accountability. I reckon that the overall standard of referring is very good under the circumstances. It's just these video box mistakes and this Foran one in particular that are causing so much frustration. In terms of accountability, yes, it's good that the referees are honest enough to admit their mistakes. But surely accountability means more than this. I read (in Paul Kent's Tele article) that referee Clark was still sticking to the same flawed reasoning that he applied in the Foran/Oldfield try. This appears to be to start from the presumption that the try was fair and then only disallow the try if you can be certain that there is a reason to disallow it. He said he couldn't find 'concrete proof' that Foran touched the ball. What did he require: a sample of Foran's fingerprints on the ball? A starting presumption and a standard of evidence bound to lead to errors. And no indication from the refs that this will change anytime soon.

Want to hear a joke, Shaun Hamstead is back this week, oh no. Who makes the rules, the refs or the game. Someone has altered the knock-on rule. A ball that went forward out of the hands, no matter if it was stripped or dropped was always pulled up for a scrum. Now for some unknown reason they send it upstairs for the video ref to look at, determine if it was stripped out. Who cares, i get so agitaited every time this happens. Now, can someone find out who, who changed this ruling. This is causing me sleepless nght's, i want to hunt down the person or people or refs or rule or law makers and bring this man to justice. He is a toolhead. :)

Paddyeff2 I will continue to suggest you review the concept of accountability until you demonstrate some fundamental understanding of the term. We will continue to disagree regarding the performance of refs, which has gone down significantly this season compared to the 4 years that preceded it. If the number of gaffs increase the scrutiny will increase. You are suggesting that we sweep it under the carpet, because you are bored by reading about it. if you are true to your convictions maybe you should wander up to the Cowboys Club and explain to them that the red decisions on Friday were nothing more than a storm in a tea cup. Personally I enjoy league for the game rather than listenIng to refs explain how they will do better next time.

Sadly no Paddyeff2. I think you may need to look up what accountability means. In very simple terms: accountability = consequences (the suspending of refs, etc...) + Improvement (you need to demonstrate you have learned from the incident). There has been no demonstration of improvement over the course of the year so therefore the refs are not acting accountably. The level of scrutiny has increased proportionally to the number of gaffs. So the premise of your article is wrong, the refs are being held to the same standard but are just not accountable for their actions. Instead of sweeping the issue under the carpet because it is repetitive, as you suggest, I advocate fixing the issue.

PS completely agree Dayer, the refs have said sorry too many times this season and the words will be cold comfort to the Cowboys and their fans.

Actually Paddyeff2 it is about as analagous as you can get. You seem to be referring to a literal example (an example where everything is directly transferable). The fine I used in my example was based upon the idea of the punative aspect of accountability, such as suspending the refs etc. The pattern I describe holds. Once again You seem to focus only on the punative aspect of accountability. You seem to suggest that accountability ends as soon as the offending party, in this case Clark and Co are punished. To be truly accountable there must be evidence of improvement, in this case a decrease in the number of video ref decisions which nobody understands and are only thought to be correct by the team who benefits. This has not occurred this year. From the start Harrigan and Co have stated their video refs are following a process, which based upon the high number a blatant errors must be flawed. As these blunders keep happening we have to assume they have not actually reviewed the process, instead opting for your view of "we punished the ref so we are accountable". This lack of addressing the cause of the problem demonstrates the lack of accountability as does Harrigan's stated view that it is all in the past and we should move on. So to recap, no improvement no accountability.

Paddyeff2 & mushi There is no compensation for the clubs that get bad calls that lead to losing a game. (like the cowboys) for instance, big deal the refs and the video refs get dropped because they still do the same mistakes when they return. I do not have an answer how to fix the problem but ......

Paddyeff2, you are more than welcome to disagree with me, just as I will continue to disagree with you and Mushi respectively. Like Mushi you seem to be focussing on only one aspect of accountability, the punitive aspect. As I mentioned in my response to Mushi there is also an element of improvement which is required for something to be considered truly accountable. Let us take a hypothetical example. A company is caught dumping hazardous waste into a pond. They say sorry and pay a fine. Two months later they are caught again and once again pay a fine and say sorry, and so on. According to you and Mushi this company is acting in an accountable manner. Sure when caught they are paying the fine, so we should just leave them, more over we should stop paying so much attention and let them get on with it (which would appear to be your approach) since hearing stories about hazardous waste in a pond is repetitive. But back to the NRL. The level of coverage would appear to be pretty consistent with recent years. Previously when such a gaff occurred the media would jump up and down and everyone would talk about it, much as is happening now. The media is not spending more time looking for these mistakes, more of these mistakes are happening. Whether they are for failure in the ability of the ref or the system they follow is irrelevant. What is relevant is that this issue was raised months ago and has not been addressed, failing that crucial aspect of accountability which involves improvement. From my original comment that is what makes Harrigan and Clark’s sentiments so unbelievable, it will continue to be business as usual while they continue with this “it happened last week, so stop talking about it” mentality.

Actually Mushi I might question your understanding of accountability. Whether in a corporate or ethical setting accountability needs to incorporate a sense of improvement, not solely punishment as you infer. Considering NRL fans first raised the issue of a lack of consistency with video ref decisions at the start of the year and we are still witnessing it now would suggest that accountability in the system is lacking.

This is rubbish utter and complete rubbish. They’ve hardly swept it under the carpet they’ve said “we think we are big enough [and] the video ref has to pay for those decisions” As a result of their mistakes they’ve been publicly admonished and suspended - that is text book accountability. But hey maybe you want more – a beheading? Maybe a good old public stoning? Burnt at the stake? Maybe a just a quick water boarding? The guy has copped a ban only a week less than Greg Inglis got for grievous bodily harm (which he complained about)? Accountability? You don’t know the meaning of the word.

Yep, you here people, even the TV commentators, talk about "shouldn't ever notice the ref" or "they're not important, the players are what's important" but they sure spend a lot of time focussing on the refs just because they don't like a split-second decision! How many times have you seen a player pass to the wrong side when he had, say, a winger with a clear run through? Does that bad decision get replayed a dozen times during the game and then a dozen times more on after-game shows?

Sorry Paddyeff2, no dice here. The entire issue is that the refs accept no responsibility for their actions. The statements issued by Harrigan and Clark, as reported by Foxsports, say it all. We said we are sorry, why don’t people just drop it and stop asking us about it, we want to put it behind us? These do not sound like the sentiments of people who understand that change is needed in the system. The refs are big boys and need to be accountable for their poor performance. While the recent angst has come from their “performance” in the Cowboys V Manly game it has been an issue for the entire year. Harrigan said the boys in the box followed the process and came up with the answer, unfortunately the answer was wrong and process is wrong. Harrigan has admitted, during the great obstruction debates this year that the process was flawed. Sadly they have done nothing to address this. I would highlight that I, and I assume most people out there, are not expecting referees to be faultless. Things happen, such as the missed strip call leading to the Cowboys first try or the forward pass resulting in Manly’s first try, which are missed based upon the speed of the game. These are the decisions that need to be swallowed as they will inevitably occur. The refs in the box are not subject to need to physically keep up with the game. They see the same video at the same speed as we do. Sadly they continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. Refusing to learn from your mistakes, especially when your actions impact on others, demonstrates a complete lack of integrity, something referees seem to go to great lengths claim they have.

The refs are hamstrung by the current rules - the rules are not well defined and therefore there is way too much room to personal interpretation. Take the knock-on rule. If a ball is dropped it can go in any direction, but is only a knock-on if it is propelled towards the oppositions tryline. How many times do we see a knock-on called just because a ball was dropped.... in any direction. OK, fine - change the rules to be like in touch football - if a ball is dropped it is a changeover. The rules need to be thoroughly and sensibly cleaned up for the benefit of refs, players and spectators.