Dear Davo Smithy, the other day I briefly discussed a divide which exists between the top and bottom Sydney clubs, a letter which triggered a healthy amount of discussion.
Since then Davo you have commented that in future struggling clubs could expect to receive special financial assistance, particular those in the west.
In response Sydney Roosters chairman Nick Politis indicated that Eastern Sydney is also in need of the NRL’s help, primarily because of lower junior participation and static club boundaries.
What I suggested in that original article was that, if after receiving additional time and support from the NRL that if these clubs were still languishing, then perhaps an intra-Sydney merger of two smaller teams to form a larger cross-Sydney club would be more advantageous than any other option.
The re-branded Eastern Sydney Sharks may indeed be able to address the issues that both teams face and be the city-wide club that both need to become.
But I’d also like to take some time to review some of the alternate proposals and comments that arose out of the discussion:
No teams should have been merged
A few people were actually calling for de-mergers.
In 2012 St George Illawarra and Wests Tigers were the fourth and fifth biggest-drawing Sydney clubs.
I suspect that would not have been the case if they had remained individual entities. Over the 80s-90s St George averaged 10,125, Illawarra 8500, Balmain 8417 and Western Suburbs 7403.
Are these really the kind of crowds people are suggesting the NRL should embrace?
Since 1999 the NRL crowd average has grown 17.8 percent – partly on the back of this consolidation.
If these clubs had grown by the same rate then the four clubs would be in the bottom six teams in the league and they may not have even survived as financial entities.
Abandoned areas will be incorporated by nearby clubs
It’s more likely to be a mix of responses. Some may find new clubs to follow and others may stop watching altogether.
It’s difficult to imagine the majority of one-eyed Sharks supporters suddenly donning Dragons colours, same for any rival club.
It also depends on the nearby club’s efforts into expanding into that abandoned turf.
For example, North Sydney has been without a club for over a decade and while Manly has done some work in expanding its boundaries it has hardly been a convincing conversion.
Scrap every Sydney club in the comp and redesign them from scratch
A major advantage of the NRL over other codes in Sydney is the multi-generational support of fans to their specific clubs.
While there are issues with Sydney clubs that may need to be addressed through changes such as mergers, entirely and willfully throwing out everything that has been built is likely a recipe for disaster.
Send struggling clubs permanently to a second-tier comp
People want to see their clubs battling against the best of the best. Will these supporters still bother to watch if they’re relegated to playing park football against Wentworthville?
And what about rugby league in general? Will the lack of a club to follow kill their interest in the NRL?
At least an axing is quick – relegation is like one long death rattle. But with a merger or relocation, the club in some shape or form will still be in the top professional tier and be there for fans to follow.
Set up a relegation league
Similar but different is the notion of a relegation league with clubs battling for re-inclusion to the big show.
The same issues arise during the relegation period in a club’s history – the down size in fan-base, finances, retaining players and the troubles in clawing it back afterwards.
There’s also the danger of further increasing the divide between the haves and have-nots. Also the question may arise – can the NRL afford to have a key strategic market relegated for an extended period?
Send a struggling club to a new expansion location
Likely a better option than relegation or extinction, several questions do arise though.
Will the non-heartland city be willing to adopt a so-called failed team?
Will the original fans be willing to support the relocated club if they no longer play games at their original home stadium and if the relocation felt like their club was stripped away from them?
If they don’t bother travelling to away games in Sydney now, why will they bother to do that for the relocated club?
There are too many unknowns to accurately answer those questions but that’s also why a merger – a club that still exists and plays out of the original home ground – could more than likely be a lower risk option.
After relocation a club could play all Sydney away games at its former home ground
A left-field idea which I also once suggested but very unlikely to be embraced the league as a whole.
In an ideal scenario it might work but unfortunately it would also effectively give that a club a season with up to 20 ‘home’ games.
It’s unlikely that any of the other Sydney clubs would agree to sacrifice home ground advantage and gates.
The alternative might be to the expand the competition by one round so that every team plays 12 home games, 12 away games and one ‘neutral’ other game (the majority of which could be at the old venue).
However again, that would require an entire consensus and would constitute additional player workload. Another alternative would be to go to 11 home games, 11 away games plus a neutral game but that would result in overall reduced revenues.
Fans of a merged club won’t travel across Sydney to see their own club at the other home venue
The best people to gauge this are the Wests Tigers and St George Illawarra fans. Last year these clubs were first and fifth in the league for away crowd support.
If they’re willing to go to other away games in Sydney then logic suggests that they do travel to their other home ground, even if in smaller numbers.
But a merger doesn’t depend on getting every Roosters fan to travel to Endeavour or vice-versa.
By reducing the number of games at each venue, fans are forced to consolidate their attendance over those fewer games.
Based on the previous mergers this tends to increase the home crowd averages at both venues (based on long term averages before and after home game reduction – Kogarah 45 percent, Wollongong 56 percent, Leichardt 73 percent, Campbelltown 80 percent).
Increasing home crowd averages obviously adds to the appeal of attending games. Based on individual attendance numbers the majority of rugby league fans attend three or fewer matches per season.
With six home games on offer at each venue the majority of fans are uninterrupted in their ability to attend home games.
There should be a financial reward for the two clubs that merge
For years there was a multi-million dollar reward on offer for any Sydney club that relocated.
Clearly this was to encourage a reduction in the number of metropolitan clubs while creating an opportunity in one new market.
An intra-Sydney merger effectively frees up one position for a new expansion location so why not offer a similar financial reward to the two Sydney clubs that merge?
If it meant that by the end of the decade that:
– There were six big Sydney clubs and only two small ones
– That we could have potentially expanded to the three most urgent bid markets
– Creating a stable 18-team national league
– While pouring in $15-20 million grassroots reward funding into Eastern and Southern Sydney
Then it should definitely be on the table for discussion.
Chris Wright
Guest
errr..........how many people go to an under 15's game. Sorry promotion and relegation would only provide a slow death for those teams that were relegated. Anyway, the reality is not team is going to move or die. The new TV deal ensures this. However we should be very careful about expansion as right now 16 clubs is the maximum with regard to the player talent pool. I think the AFL is struggling with stretching their player talent pool right now. The only reasonable option for expansion is a Wayne Bennet idea. And that is if a new team is to come in they must recruit almost exclusively from overseas players.
bjt
How many of your 1908 teams are still around? All traditions have to start somewhere. Its important to respect traditions and simple stupidity to base the future of a sport of them.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
Don't know whether you are referring to me " PAL "but all of my posts infer having unmerged teams was better for the game,ie the tradition and the crowd passion.I would much rather a Wests team and a Balmain team Hardly supportive of Super league.Fact many of my posts have been scathing of SL on other threads.The very reason I am against mergers and people wanting to merge Roosters with Sharks FHS.
Bluebag
Guest
What a load of codswallop! Have a look at the calendar pal - HERITAGE ROUND, ie celebrate tradition. Sydney has been the heart of the game since 1908 and RL was built on the tribal rivalries that have grown over 105 years. You sound like one of those failed Super League marketing blokes, all gel and sideburns telling us they would create new traditions!
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
Don't know what my posts elsewhere have anything to do with this thread.My point is simply to state unmerged clubs have individually better crowds than when they have merged in the main. Yep I know nothing about St George,the wife a St George supporter,my father -in -law ditto,my brother -in-law played juniors for the district and I live in the Shire.Yep I know nothing about St George. Please read comments before putting your own interpretation on them by taking them out of context..
reg
Guest
Average to date this year?? We've only played 2 freaking games!!! At least wait until the season's done for crying out loud. Sorry but I've read your posts previously elsewhere/ The reason why you're cherry picking 1998 & 2013 instead of 1997 & 2012 or 2011 is because you know your argument is shot down in flames in those years and even the years prior to that. This year we don't get the Anzac Game but again, we didn't have it in 2011 either and we still got 17411! Honestly stop commenting on our club, you obviously know nothing about us.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
Reg please I am comparing the number with the unmerged set up of 1998,with the average to date this year 2013 not 2011 not 2012.the source is Big league out today,and if I can't use that as a reference point,then I may as well give up. I am not bagging crowd averages nor the club FHS,all I am doing is showing the fact teams when they were unmerged ,appear to have when combined,, a better average, than when they merged. IOW I believe teams would have been better off being independent and not merging,is my point. An entity by definition,a thing which exists independently.The description has been used by officials within the game. Thanks for the personal insult,I will not respond in kind,as it adds nothing to a debate. matter of fact i have met Bear fans who have given up on the game,and follow the Tahs and the swans.And an illawarra fan who has not attended a game since the merger.
reg
Guest
Ask the Bears fans how much they love their heritage whilst sitting on the sidelines for a decade!!!
reg
Guest
"The merged entity is averaging 13691".... wtf?? Check your facts - in 2012 we averaged 16426 and in 2011 we drew 17411!!! Picking 1998 is so random, we made the finals that year so of course we did better. In 1997 we only drew 7222!!! I much prefer what we draw now, it's more than double. And we're not a ""merged entity"", we're a football club you idiot! It's insulting when you bag us out like that. There are plenty of bleeding hearts who keep telling us that we shouldn't have merged but then again, we probably would've been cut from the comp. Heritage means bugger all if you're not playing!
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
Merging may have helped the steelers in terms of their financials,but as their averages indicate 1998 est 9,240 home crowd and the Dragons same year ave 10,889 did little for crowds as a combined entity. To date the merged entity is averaging 13,691. I have stated before fans who left rl ,because of mergers and removals of teams.Balmain,Wests,Illawarra and indeed the Bears. Unless a team is a financial basketcase with no light at the end of the tunnel,no infrastructure (bricks and mortar)and no left field source of income,then that is a case for relocation. The SL war should be a veritable lesson in history for us,you lose teams ,play around with fans loyalty and it comes back to bite you in the rear end. There is absolutely no reason the code cannot have up to 20 teams in a couple of conferences,the Churchill and Messenger ones. There are players in the UK who should be playing here,there are PNG players who need an opportunity and Fijians,and Tongans and Kiws etc.The clubs will not agree to a shortened season,unless they are recompensed. The $1bn plus TV monies was essential for the ARLC to proceed with their strategic plan,the fact ch9 is paying lip service ATM in Melbourne(which I don't like) will only last til the end of the current deal,at which time the code will be cashed up and tell that station to get knotted if need be.The code will be using some of this current largesse to grow the game in Vic,lose one gain another.
bjt
Guest
And has no sporting team in any of the national competitions. A very nice way to secure a future market. It's called looking forward. Something the NRL and many of it's fans can't seem to grasp. Result = Kid growing up in the NT - wants to play League.
Charles NSW
Guest
In any business you have to cater for growth. The more people playing league the better. So where do we draw the line in our national competition now as to how many we have. It has to be viable or the competition gets to long and unworkable. The problem is whatever the size more people will be knocking on the door wanting to join. The only solution is to have a state competition, a national competition and an international competition.
peeeko
Roar Guru
because Darwin has a population of 75k
Von Neumann
Roar Guru
I was merely stating mushi that code 13 had the right of it. next time you could ask him for clarification I was reading his story and it made sense to me.
bjt
The NRL’s doing a fine job at that, regardless of how big the Sydney glut is. However, using your same argument, has the NRL already handed Brisbane over to the AFL/A-League/Super Rugby? I think the NRL will need to implement 7 teams in Brisbane next year to win the war.
bjt
Yes, second tier and no one's debating the quality is going to be lower than NRL, as we all know what second tier means. Although I do watch the channel 9's only other live game a week, which is the QCUp and the games are good. (The referring is really good actually - a lot less frustrating than watching a NRL game). The point is NRL aren't selling it as a product, when it could be. The second tier, Kingstone Press Championship in the UK is broadcasted. QLD cup has a game a week, and not sure about NSW cup, but I think it might be on Foxtel this year. These would have been perfect for Ten's ONE when it was still trying to be a sports channel. Why not have a QLD/NSW Cup match as a precursor to a NRL match? Why of all things is it not the QCup winner playing the NCup winner before the grand final? There are a lot of things that can be done. But it’s the same old story for RL.
bjt
As I said, this is just for fun. That's 2 Sydney teams for the National Conference, the rest are in the Sydney Conference - to have one's cake and eat it too, is what they say. Of course the real solution is to just drop 4-5 Sydney teams to the NSW Cup and make in real National Comp. Why not Hobart and Darwin? Become the first true national sport of Australia? What's wrong with that? Or should we can just be negative defeatists, like we are now. We sit back and give it to AFL or Soccer? Who care's right? Because we've got Sydney where no one turns up to games. Yes, that's a great future for a sport. An overcrowded market of poor performing teams with the most fickle fans of Australia - a winning combination!
bjt
Guest
Yes, that is plain madness. It's best not to respond. :)
code 13
Roar Guru
Without trying to spark a war of hypotheticals, I actually agree that the choices of merger partners could've been better - but - it was also done at a time when clubs were pretty much just thinking about survival. And as has been said previously, the ground work for the West Tigers and St George Illawarra Dragons has been laid. Tearing it up would only damage the game. What I'm suggesting though is that if there are still 3 or 4 lowly ranked Sydney clubs that have been so for 15-20 years then perhaps rather than instigating a merger as survival tactic it should be explored as a strategic initiative to the benefit of both clubs and the league. Just to compare again - * Relocation: 5 big Sydney clubs, 3 small Sydney clubs, 1 relocated Sydney expansion club * Merger: 6 big Sydney clubs, 2 small Sydney clubs and one spot open for expansion for a new expansion club And yes Wests Tigers & St George Illawarra are in the list of big Sydney clubs for all the reasons stated previously. I think it's time to end this myth that the mergers were failures.
Eliah James
Roar Rookie
I too doubt we'll ever see it, what has happened in the past has practically ensured that. The size of the overhaul would be monumental to create a sustainable model. But, like I said, I do prefer the English model. Watching lower division soccer in the UK was much more enjoyable than watch NSW/QLD cup over here, the feeling of watching reserve teams just isn't the same as watching a firsts team, no matter the division, and there was the feeling of connection from the bottom club teams to the top.