The second tier of football in Australia

We shouldn't mistake promotion/relegation with depth and talent development. Promotion/relegation should not be an end in itself. Not one of the leagues around the world that use it were aiming for it, they simply had to do it to organise the sport. It should be the same here, if promotion/relegation will make the sport better then we should do it. Until that is the case concentrate on what actually is needed. There isn't a sport in Australia that has managed two national-level competition levels, even the traditional powerhouses with all their money. We certainly have a large gap between the A-League and the next tier down, and I agree that needs to be closed. That fact that you only go one tier down and our sport is amateur is one of the key reasons that more established football countries are better than us. That is why the NPL is so important, and kudos to FFA for bringing it in. Hopefully the state and territory Feds don't screw it up. We also need to ween ourselves off all these 'academy' and 'institute' programs that we have been relying on for too long. They've had their day, when all the leagues were too weak to produce real talent. Now we have the A-League and the NPL, so swing the emphasis onto the leagues. The old idea of pulling all the best players out of clubs, putting them all in the same team and playing them back against the rest is old soccer. Grow the leagues and the sport grows with them.

Great point. And with actions taken by teams' boards (like the Melbourne Victory) to shut-down organic and free active support, individual clubs will continue to struggle gain the traction they need to develop their own identity and become the "marketable product". Also, there really need to be more efforts to turn teams into "clubs", not mere business "franchises". Memberships should be Club Memberships in the real sense of the term, with voting rights, equity shares, social events and social/community sports/gyms etc, not just discount entry passes. That way, just as you say: even if a team is relegated, there won't be such an exodus of supporters. And a 2nd division could be more viable.

" the LEAGUE ITSELF is the marketable product, not the individual clubs." The no1 issue facing the game imo...the fortunes of each franchise need to be separated off to an individual club level. Only then can each find their own sustainable place and see some of the top teams grow further.

The reason promotion/relegation is not yet an option for Australia is that at the moment the LEAGUE ITSELF is the marketable product, not the individual clubs. When Newcastle Utd were relegated a few seasons ago, an entire city essentially lost interest in the biggest domestic league in the world and instead followed their club in the Championship. Until your WSW, Victory or Roar could do the same and essentially keep people showing up at games and more importantly watching on Foxtel regardless of which league they're in then it's simply too risky. Ultimately the NPL will be a test model to see if a 2nd Division can be viable. Once that's proven then there is still the question of whether the HAL can afford to not have all its biggest clubs. So promotion/relegation is a long way off. In the meantime as has been pointed out the NYL is the combined youth and reserve league... and I note at least Brisbane and Perth (perhaps others?) will be entering their NYL teams into the local NPL competitions in those states.

NSWPL & VPL clubs do not have a supporter base that is substantial or have capacity to grow. Any feeder club idea is not necessary in the A-League. Just do what the Jets are doing with their emerging Jets program, and establish a youth team in the local comp so juniors gain exp playing vs older players, and are playing all year round.

I would love to know how "TV and sponsorship money will swell dramatically" The market is already stretched, where are the extra dollars and extra fans going to come from?

You're equating United's ("manure") supporter base, with Sydney FC's..? Look, what you say is all true in a theoretical "are you a true supporter" kind of way...but there is no chance that the ALeague is ready to relegate the 2 Sydney clubs. Eventually maybe, but not in the short term.

If WSW and SFC were relegated, it would be deserved as they wouldn't have earned the right to play in the top league as it would be based on merit. Would they lose members? well if they were real supporters then they wouldn't abandon their team, when the the teams needs them most, maybe it would act as a clarion call for supporters to turn up and show their true colours and get that promotion bandwagon go along it may be a good thing in the long run. I mean even Manure were releagted in the 70's and their crowds actually increased when they were in the lower league.

A quasi-2nd league? I'm sorry, but what are people tripping on about? The NPL is a fantastic idea and should be given full support to thrive. However, in a way it is still a league based on small community based clubs. Yes, it is a fantastic launching pad for teams with a real plan to become A-League Franchises, but it should not be a straight P/R 2nd division. Why? Because it includes the old ethnic & community NSL teams. The A-League is successful because its teams have no specific ethnic (or small community) ties - they have a broad appeal which the old clubs could never achieve (no matter what the SMFC die-hards say). The NYL is also not a "quasi-2nd tier league". It is exactly what it says it is - a youth league, with a focus on developing youth talent, and feeding into their clubs' senior squads. Every A-League team should have a youth team behind it in my opinion, and any prospective teams should start with a youth league first to lay the ground work. But it's a parallel league, not a separate division. I've given some thought to how a 2nd tier league could work myself (it's a fun exercise :-) ). The way I see it, within around 10-15 years, this 2nd Div (A-League-2? B-League?) should consist of 6 expansion clubs, playing a 20-match season, concurrently while the 10 teams of the A-League play their season. Smaller comp, less expenses and a stepping stone to the main league. With the top-4 B-League teams playing off the bottom 4 A-League teams, there's enough excitement and unpredictability there to generate plenty of excitement and content. (Perhaps as a supplement, the B-League teams could play a part in another comp like the NPL for more game time.) And do you really think the supporters of the major clubs are so disloyal they would abandon their beloved clubs in droves after relegation? Sure, there may be some drop off, but I think a large chunk of support would remain for a couple seasons. As long as it's structured right, given enough support, and has enough incentives and deterrents around (like finals/cup spots, etc), and with the potential of FTA or Pay TV picking up the cheaper broadcast rights of this competition, I reckon it could work, and it would be the most promising expansion pathway for the A-League.

Sorry to rain on your parade mwm but you can give P/R about a generation or two to establish. That means 25 to 50 years. Yes, awful long time but remember next season is HAL 10. 10 years and most clubs are still finding it financially challenging. In 10 years from now with new media deals I'd expect the current clubs (if they all still exist) to be reasonably well off and crowds averaging 15-20 k. There will be no P/R until there is as much money going into the lower league as there is into the A-league. This while competing for fans and sponsorship dollars against the other football code, cricket, baketball, etc. We have a very crowded sporting market and everyone wants to have a professional national competition.

This is great in theory. But its at least a decade away in reality. All 10 A-league clubs need to keep growing their sponsorship & membership bases and their crowds & overall brands. A national 2nd tier would be very expensive to run, and all player wages too high, as it needs to be a professional competition. Both money and time are against this right now. The NPL is just about to take shape nationally, lets see how that goes. I'd love for this to happen tomorrow, imagine the relegation scraps & battles, quite often on the last day of the season! That'd be quality! But I dont think its realistic just yet!

Full licensing for a second tier within 3-5 years? I would love it, but there is zero chance of it happening I'm afraid. In fact, there's still a chance we may not even have an 11th team within 3-5 years. Agree that P&R adds much to the game, and really makes it unique, but it's going to be challenge no matter which way the FFA go about it. As Australia Rules has said, if the big teams are relegated, it will be a disaster. If WSW and Victory go, then the A-League has lost 40k members. That's 2/5 of the entire league's member base. As for the game reaching all corners of the country, well this is where the headache for the FFA becomes a migraine: Do they focus on regional, less populated areas? Or do they stick with the big cities? From what DG said about expansion, they'll be looking at places with millions of people. And someone else online really got me thinking when they said that the FFA will probably stick with the main cities because it will mean more derbys, which are the biggest matches. And I must admit they have a point. There's a definite chance the A-League could have 4 teams in Sydney and 3 or 4 in Melbourne, much like the AFL and NRL. A shame for the regional areas, but a huge win for the city dwellers. Either way I'm not bothered, just as long as the football and competition are thriving.

Promotion and relegation - eventually yes, but there simply isn't the stability and infrastructure of national clubs for it to be implemented right now. Picture this... It's 2015 and WSW and SFC finish bottom two and are bumped out of the ALeague. In one swoop, the entire Sydney market is locked out of the competition for at least one year. There is no way the ALeague is ready for that.

without promotion and relegation - football is just a cartoon 2 leagues need to be structured and fully aligned minus any clashes in each state with a 70/30 -> 60/40 exposure rate TV and sponsorship money will swell dramatically There will be more content on offer to the public There will be no dead or less significant fixtures and as a result genuine interest, attendance and ratings in all games will also swell Both ends of the table will provide genuine purpose Football Australia will be within the recommendations of the AFC and FIFA Game will reach all the major corners of the country Major cities with 1 team should have a team in tier 2 to marginalise any possibility of a Perth without an A - League team Football needs to provide drama (in essence football is not a sport that bases itself predominantly on major highlights)- there are more goals in AFL and there are more tackles in rugby the main differentiation with our game is promotion and relegation If a Melbourne Heart were to be relegated - then so be it -their re-emergence back into tier 1 is also a re-launch and provides many positives to a brand Nothing to fear but fear itself Even Lowy is quoted as saying Promotion and Relegation is the lifeblood of this game How AFL/NRL would respond? - put simply - they cant Introduce a tier 2 with full licensing over the next 3-5 years and allow and announce a 5 year establishment period...... then bring it on Watch the product improve dramatically when clubs are truly fighting for their survivl ........otherwise people will stick to watching the Premier League etc winning and survivng are equally as engaging

There shouldn't be talk of it until 2-4 expansion teams get brought in and every HAL side has an acadamy set up and a 2nd side with it's own ground/facilities in the NPL.

I was thinking that adding six teams to the NYL would give a good 2nd division straight away. With an opportunity for the youngsters to play against adults. The six sides would be semi-pro, with the salaries worked out so clubs wouldn't go into debt, something along the financial fair play rules UEFA is trying to instigate. I would imagine a tv network may want to buy the pro/rel playoff, so I do think there would be tv money coming in as well.

+1 with the NYL. The FFA regard it as a higher calibre than the NPL, and it's easier to expand this comp instead of the A-League. There's already a Canberra based team, and Northern Fury are keen to launch a team. It's a good way to test the waters without taking the risky dive of putting an A-League team in an unknown market. And now that some of the NYL teams are playing the NPL too, they'll have year-round football and training.

Have you ever heard of the National Youth League mate...? That aside, promotion/relegation won't happen in Australia for decades, if ever.

"Should a quasi-second division be formed with the same A-League clubs themselves?" Its called the National Youth League ....already there and operating. NYL is the perfect launching pad for a proper second division one day....progressively replace each of the NYL sides with an NPL team until all the HAL youth teams are integrated into their local leagues. And there we'd have A-League division 2. Existing first division clubs could loan out some youth players to the second div, keep some in their local setup...more options for young coaches also with a two division league once its fleshed out. All possible assuming the game's administrators are capable of letting go of their little emperor mentalities and De-regulate the labour market in football. Its an important step the game needs to take to truly integrate into the global football economy. The benefits of a more open, deregulated structure for the game will be worth it in the long run. (And this is not a 'they do it in europe so do it here' argument no more than the current setup is about 'they do it in afl/nrl so do it here'...)

This could work as long as those playing in the second tier don't expect to be paid. Amateur players only might work. There is no chance that a professional second tier would work as the crowds would be in the hundreds (if not less than that) and no TV network would pay to broadcast them. Maybe in 20 -30 years when the A league is properly established, not now though. Amateur could work but the players would have to work as Garbos and then go to training, like rugby league players used to do.