It’s mighty hard for a rugby league forward to make a successful switch to international rugby – Sam Burgess will have to defy history.
There’s no doubting Burgess’ talent, and his courage and heroics for South Sydney are cemented in rugby league folklore.
But rugby is a vastly different game upfront, especially at scrum and ruck and maul time.
The rugby league ‘scrum’ is a blight and an embarrassment on a great game. It’s more a lean-to rabble to get 12 forwards in a confined space to allow backs more room to move.
No current league halfback has ever fed the tunnel where there’s a contest for the ball. Instead, halves feed the ball behind the second row’s feet and haven’t even time to retire behind the ‘scrum’ to retain possession.
But a rugby scrum is far more scientific, so will Burgess have enough time to acclimatise before next year’s Rugby World Cup?
That time has been lessened by the rehab Burgess must undergo since his six-hour surgery to repair the serious cheekbone and eye-socket fractures suffered in the NRL grand final.
Another difference between the codes is the tackle. In league, tackles halt proceedings to play-the-ball, allowing every player time to get back in position, whereas a rugby tackle starts a maul-ruck non-stop sequence that may well continue for 20-plus phases.
That makes the demands on a rugby forward far more physically demanding and continuous.
Since World War II, no English rugby league forward has successfully become a dual forward international. But England rugby league second-rower Andy Farrell became an England rugby centre in 2007, as did Kiwi Sonny Bill Williams make the same forward switch to become an All Black centre.
But the list is long, and talented, in the other direction: English rugby forwards who became English rugby league reps were Ray French in 1968, and Mike Coulman in 1975.
There more successful switches among the rugby backs, with Bev Risman in 1968, Keith Fielding 1975, Keith Smith 1979, Peter Williams 1989, and John Bentley in 1992.
Five successful switches from English rugby league international backs to rugby internationals were Barrie-Jon Mather in 1999, Jason Robinson 2001, Chris Ashton 2010, Kyle Eastmond 2013, and Joel Tomkins in 2013.
The list is far greater among Wallaby forwards who became Kangaroos: Ken Kearney switched in 1952, Rex Mossop 1958, Dick Thornett 1963, Kevin Ryan 1964, Ray Price 1978, and Scott Gourley in 1991.
Wallaby backs to successfully make the switch: Trevor Allan in 1950, Arthur Summons 1961, Mike Cleary 1962, Jimmy Lisle 1962, Bob Honan 1969, Phil Hawthorne 1970, John Brass 1970, Stephen Knight 1972, Geoff Richardson 1974, Michael O’Connor 1986, Ricky Stuart 1990, and Andrew Walker in 2000.
No Kangaroo forward has ever become a Wallaby, but five Kangaroo backs have become Wallabies: Wendell Sailor and Mat Rogers in 2002, Lote Tuqiri 2003, Timana Tahu 2008, and Israel Folau in 2013.
In New Zealand, no Kiwi rugby league international forward has become an All Black since World War 2, but seven All Black backs have become Kiwi rugby league internationals: Jimmy Haig in 1947, Kurt Sherlock 1969, Matthew Ridge 1990, Frano Botica 1991, John Timu 1995, Marc Ellis 1996, and Craig Innes in 1997.
So the odds are long against Sam Burgess being a success in rugby.
Time alone will be the judge.
Katipo
Guest
@gwoshmi. Union can be more demanding aerobically than league. In the last round of TRC we saw periods of continuous ball in play up to 3 minutes. That's 3 minutes sprinting for many of the players. League stops at every single tackle. Would the ball ever be in play for 3 minutes in league without a tackle stoppage? No. It is true that union has longer stoppages. Long stoppages aren't required in league because most players are standing still or jogging unless they are carrying the ball. This makes league appear faster on TV because they focus on the fast running ball carrier. Advantage league on TV coverage. @Damien. League is more brutal than union. I agree. That is part of the reason why it's participation levels are behind union in every country except Australia and PNG. The swinging arms, head shots, broken cheeks and punches on the ground (all visible at the highest level of league) are anything but a good advertisement for league. Advantage union for on-field sportsmanship.
Loosey
Guest
Judging by the way Thorn did it, Sam won't break a sweat. Never mind Palu.
gwoshmi
Guest
You fail to consider the time the ball is in play. The union boys have plenty of time for hands on hips and recover. League forwards in defence are constantly moving - moving up and getting back ten. The pace of a league is far, far faster than any union game at any level. No contest.
gwoshmi
Guest
" however, think he’ll eventually end up back in RL " Let's hope so. A hard running/tackling league forward is wasted playing union.
Upfromdown
Guest
I am not sure it matters so much. A lot of kids play both, as well as soccer and aussie rules etc. A lot of kids play union or league because the school they went to played that game. I don't believe that a sport creates a player. A player is created by his genes, his opportunities, his interests. They develop different skills because they play different games.
John
Guest
What about been a number 8? Good size, mobility, strength, pace to take the ball off the scrum.
Rod
Guest
History suggested Souths would never win a grand final. Guess what they did, and it was one of the most brutal defensive displays that I have seen. Sam Burgess is an absolute gun of a player he will do well
ChrisCrus
Guest
You haven't given us 1 example of an English league forward moving to a Union forward. So Lord's assertion still stands.
ChrisCrus
Guest
So easy for you to criticise. Let's see you write something worth reading.
Reality
Guest
You're kind off right daz, but only in school union, go to any club and its a different story , the problem is the old boys are the ones who run our game.
soapit
Guest
i find that very hard to believe especially afl. cardio is such a massive part of that game. i guess in amateur days things werent as scientific so poido could well have been making himslef super fit evcen tho it may not have been the "best" way for him to be training for his particular sport.
Griffo
Guest
I believe you mean moot point.
soapit
Guest
rugby should go after klemmer before he gets too big and expensive and a locked in part of the league rep scene tho it may be too late already.
soapit
Guest
i had him down at hooker when i did my "crossover" team jerry but looks like he might need to put on some kilo's. not the most difficult task in sport. especially when going from a game where the ball is in play around 60 mins to 35 mins in union (and not constantly having to do 10m up and backs the whole time). i'll add that i have gallen at 104 with s faingaa at 103 and s moore at 113
Far north rugby fan
Guest
Nic Henderson switched from league and played prop in Union
Greaper
Roar Rookie
hi there sheek, I know you're getting alot of stick for your comment but I have to put my 2 cents in there and would say that based on the toughest 100 springbok forwards of all time could be argued to be as tough as the 100 toughest league boys. It's a moot point but the majority of the bok pack are hardened farm boys with heavy-handed fathers and often lack the sensibility to know when to stop. Prime example would be Schalk Burger playing with a broken neck against Scotland in 2007 and there are many more war stories along those line. But in any case it would be an interesting scrap to watch.
Colin N
Guest
I'm sure Bath have tried that in training, but passing from the base of the ruck consistently and accurately is a very difficult skill to master.
Rugby Tragic
Guest
Hahaha! .. loved that OB!..
Birdy
Guest
In Brief; then there were those 'girly men' like Martin Johnson, Simon Shaw, Danny Grewcock, Steve Thompson, Jason Leonard etc etc. The criticism of the English club game from Kiwis who have played in it has tended to be that while it is often physically tougher, it is not as fast - it's the pace of the game that has tended to separate the English club game from, say SR, not the 'toughness' of the players. This has also hurt the England international team in the last decade (although there's some evidence that this is now changing).
Birdy
Guest
"Pommie rugby players aren't as tough as Kiwi rugby players, generally speaking". Any particular evidence for that, Sheek, or just 'armchair warrior' mouthing off?