Carlton at risk of AFL debt ceiling

You can add a $1m loss for Geelong mostly thanks to being forced to play 'home games' in Melbourne. http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/news/poor-crowds-have-cats-facing-1m-loss/news-story/7f5d2095af40fd7d4e3b27663d1468e8 Second year in a row of losing money after 15 years of profit.

For those interested in the business of footy, good friend to the Roar, the Wookie, keeps tabs on annual reports and related stories on a sub-board on BF, here are the reported results to date: Adelaide - modest profit [News Ltd] Carlton - 2 million loss [News Ltd][Fairfax] Hawthorn - 3.33 million profit [AFL.com.au][Fairfax][News Ltd] Melbourne - close to $500,000 profit [Fairfax] Port Adelaide - expecting a profit [News Ltd] Richmond - $500,000 profit [Fairfax]

Andyl12 - I think looking back on this conversation my credibility holds up much better than yours. And what i say is the truth - football clubs don't stand for anything greater than winning games of football when it all boils down to it. Yes the give supporters a tribal sense of belonging but they aren't taking moral, religious or political stands - they simply want to win games of football. You might claim that the hawks stand for "a team first culture and developing young men into high quality talent - both on and off the field" or whatever other corporate speak the PR department pumps out and to a certain degree that would be true but the overarching goal of that statement is to win football games - if team won more football games by being individualistic and clubbing baby seals that would be the credo. And if you went into every football club in the AFL (and probably nearly every one in the country) the would all talk about having the same values you think are unique to Hawthorn - the only difference is the talent levels and the ability to apply those values for longer during the game. Finally for what its worth the blues motto is "Mens sana in corpore sano. (A sound mind in a healthy body)."

Macca, that just shows how little you know about football. Hard to take anything you say seriously when you talk like that.

Andyl12- What does Carlton stand for - how about truth justice and the American way? I suppose the Hawks send for World peace!! They are football clubs you dope, the play football and he object of the game is to win, they don't stand for anything more than that - they aren't charitable organist ions or religions, they just want to win football games

No apology for anything. Especially while you still haven't the slightest clue what Carlton stand for, and while you still haven't the slightest clue how they blew their riches.

REally who would have thought - if only the other clubs had thought of this - oh wait that is what every club is trying to do!!! The only possible exception is the Hawks who are busy poaching experienced players from other clubs! And everyone could see Gunston looked quality. "Our 17-year flag gap was due to a number of things but the club environment wasn't one of them" SO you gap was due to a number of factors but Carltons is simply down to culture - double standards again. And if this was true why the need for a "line in the sand" game? "No, of course those other clubs don't have a born-to-rule culture" which again goes to show that there are many factors involved in success or lack of it - culture is just a small part because winning creates culture. As for the Blues culture - I am not arrogant enough to think that just because I support a club I know the internal culture of the players and coaches. Culture is more than the lines the clubs feed the press. No apology for being stupendously wrong on Boltons contract?

"“True but you went 17 years from 1991 to 2008 is 17 years fine but 20 due to cultural issues?” “And given the blues aren’t the only club with an extended drought at the moment do all their clubs not understand either?” “And what exactly does it take (to be successful in the modern era)?” “The bulldogs haven’t won a premiership in more than 60 years, Freo have never won one, Richmond is over 30 years, North is at 16 – what are all their cultural issues that are holding them back? Born to rule?”" OK Macca. To be successful in the modern era you have to be smart when knowing which youngsters to recruit, and then create a club environment (Ie. culture) that makes those players want to stay. Carlton's sacking of Ratten and Malthouse would not have made players want to stay. You also have to know who to target when going the top-up route- I doubt any other club would've been smart enough to take Jack Gunston. No, of course those other clubs don't have a born-to-rule culture. But in some cases, off-field mismanagement has certainly contributed to their lack of success and certain player exoduses. Our 17-year flag gap was due to a number of things but the club environment wasn't one of them. Now tell me, as a supposedly-passionate fan of Carlton, you must know what your club stands for, even if you can't tell me what its culture is. If you can't tell me what they stand for, there is a clear lack of communication between club and fans.

"So andyl12, if Bolton is sacked within the first 3 years he receive the bulk of money owed for the initial term." And if he is sacked after that he gets a nominated pay out figure!! Sure beats "he’s just on rolling weekly employment that can be terminated after one bad loss without a payout." despite the "evidence" And I'm still waiting for those answers Andy!!

Just for you andyl12 - from the Herald Sun "NEW Carlton coach Brendon Bolton has agreed to a radical rolling contract, but the Blues are committed to the rookie mentor for three years. If Bolton is sacked inside three years, he would receive the bulk of monies owed for the initial term. If he coaches beyond that point, he would continue on a rolling basis, with a specified notice period and payout figure. Carlton believes the unusual contract with Bolton will spare it continual speculation about his future with the Blues committed to giving him every chance to complete what many believe will be a five-year rebulld". From Mark Brayshaw "AFL Coaches Association boss Mark Brayshaw said Bolton’s deal made sense. “I think it’s fine. Subject to the detail he avoids the ongoing speculation as his contract expires. It is a bloody good idea.” So andyl12, if Bolton is sacked within the first 3 years he receive the bulk of money owed for the initial term. Now please tell me that you are still right in what you have said.

Questions that have been ignored; "True but you went 17 years from 1991 to 2008 is 17 years fine but 20 due to cultural issues?" "And given the blues aren’t the only club with an extended drought at the moment do all their clubs not understand either?" "And what exactly does it take (to be successful in the modern era)?" "The bulldogs haven’t won a premiership in more than 60 years, Freo have never won one, Richmond is over 30 years, North is at 16 – what are all their cultural issues that are holding them back? Born to rule?" "Because the evidence quite honestly is that he’s just on rolling weekly employment that can be terminated after one bad loss without a payout." Evidence - what evidence? You making stuff up isn't evidence. Do you think Steven Trigg, Andy McKay, Stephen Silvagni are on a rolling weekly contract? You inability to grasp the simple concept that an employment contract can be in place that doesn't have an expiry date (like virtually every employee in the country) makes me wonder how you get dressed in the morning.

Macca, remind me what "answers" you want? And while you're at it, find me this contract. Because the evidence quite honestly is that he's just on rolling weekly employment that can be terminated after one bad loss without a payout.

So Andyl12 - you honsetly believe Bolton is just working at the blues on a handshake? The is nothing written down n paper anywhere with signatures on it that stipualte his rate of pay, his holidays, his redundancy clauses - nothing?! Do the blues simply hand him a bag of cash at the end of each day and tell him whether to bother coming in the next day? "get a leg up on other job applicants by agreeing to a less secure deal, and the club jumped at the opportunity because it might save them six figures of $ some day. It happens in most parts of the workforce." True but they still have a contract stating the deal is less secure and that they can be dismissed without compensation. And again no answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"To accept the idea that both Carlton and Bolton would start an employer/employee relationship in such a cut throat business as AFL coaching without a contract requires us accepting that Bolton, his management team and the blues board are complete and utter i diots." Or maybe it reflects that in a cut-throat business like AFL coaching, Bolton felt he could get a leg up on other job applicants by agreeing to a less secure deal, and the club jumped at the opportunity because it might save them six figures of $ some day. It happens in most parts of the workforce.

Andyl12- "Macca- Maybe YOU should produce the contract since you’re so sure there is one" To accept the idea that both Carlton and Bolton would start an employer/employee relationship in such a cut throat business as AFL coaching without a contract requires us accepting that Bolton, his management team and the blues board are complete and utter i diots. As that is clearly not the case there is no alternative but to accept the blindingly obvious that a contract exists. Again no answers? For someone who enjoys talking footy you aren't keen on answering questions relating to it.

Paul D- Why do I write comments? Because I can, and because I enjoy a bit of footy chat. Macca- Maybe YOU should produce the contract since you're so sure there is one.

Andyl12- "can’t post a copy of a contract when there is no contract" No you are just embarrassing yourself - of course there is a contract - every employee has a contract with their employer where it outlines the work expected for the remuneration, number of sick days, annual leave, redundancy etc etc - just because this contract doesn't have an expiry date doesn't mean there isn't a contract. And again no answers?

I never said you couldn't comment? Just asking why. You haven't answered that. Nice attempt at a deflection though. And sure, Bolton doesn't have a contract - but that hasn't stopped you making up your own reasons as to why he doesn't.

"Why do you even care about Carlton? You have expended an awful lot of finger skin pounding away on your keyboard in Carlton threads of late. Just curious as to why you feel the need to keep returning to the trough for another spray." This is an open forum about Carlton. Just because my side has had awesome success in recent years doesn't mean I'm not allowed to comment on other sides. Macca- can't post a copy of a contract when there is no contract.

Andyl12 - Could you please post your copy of Boltons contract so we can all see the exact clauses? Also you didn't answer what cultural problems beset all the other clubs that haven't one a premiership this century or what exactly it takes in the modern AFL. Pauld - Well said.