With the whitewash of the Wallabies and the Boks struggling at home against the Irish, there has been fresh talk about whether overseas players should be eligible to play for their country.
For what almost seems like an admin issue, it has stirred up a great deal of passion from both sides of the debate. With the Rugby Championship not too far away and both Australia and South Africa looking for improvement, it is likely this debate will get louder.
Personally I’ve always been on the side that says “let them play”. I want my national side to have the very best players and if they are playing for a club side overseas then that’s fine by me.
The coach and selectors need to make that final decision about who are the best players for the squad but they shouldn’t have one hand tied behind their back when trying to answer that very hard question.
Playing for your country should be the highest honour – but as well as sacrificing all those things that players have to in order to reach that level, should players also be forced to miss out on playing overseas and the benefits it brings?
Preferring to play for Saracens or Toulon rather than the Western Force or the Reds is not a middle finger up at Australian Rugby. But it’s not just the Aussies who are debating this issue.
Take England as an example. In June 2015 two of the very best players in Europe were Englishmen playing in France – Stefan Armitage (back row for Toulon) and Nick Abendanon (full back for Clermont).
They were in the form of their lives, playing in strong sides against other strong sides in both the Top 14 league and Heineken Cup. Armitage won ERC Player of the Year in 2014 and Abendanon took his crown in 2015.
But Stuart Lancaster was not able to pick them for the England squad that went into the Rugby World Cup. Both of these players stood a very, very good chance of earning a squad place and arguably would have been in the starting 15 come game day.
We all know how England’s World Cup went for them and while the presence of Armitage and Abendanon would not have guaranteed England any success, it would have certainly made their team better overall.
Today of course the English back row is beginning to strike fear into opponents but in October 2015 messers Robshaw and Haskell were not scaring anyone. Armitage would have brought pace, size and scrappiness at the break down that would have truly helped.
Australia found the benefits of having their overseas players available for selection in England 2015.
Giteau, despite advancing years, played well and combined with Foley to give the Wallabies that second playmaker and experience that they seemed to have really missed in this recent series. Adam Ashely-Cooper too brought experience and played well throughout.
Some have argued that their contributions have been overplayed but it’s easy to imagine that their experience and leadership was of value to the squad throughout their campaign as well as on the actual field.
Looking at the commercials of the whole situation it also seems unfair to me that these players are punished.
We’ve all heard the argument that a professional rugby player’s playing career is relatively short term compared to other more common careers.
In this time they want to play at the highest standard, win as much as they can and make as much money as possible at the same time.
With the ARU and Super Rugby unable to offer them the same level of salary as places like the French Top 14 clubs, it’s easy to see why a growing number are being tempted to try something new.
And let’s be clear – it’s not like the standard of rugby drops significantly as the wages increase. We’re not talking about a football player who is going from the English Premiership to the American MLS or Aussie A League for a final season of good money and good weather.
Top level European rugby is good quality and getting better. So why are those people who are trying to enrich both their careers and their bank balance having something taken away from them?
Depending upon where those players are playing then it could arguably make them even better players and bring a benefit to the player’s national side too.
If one of the Wallabies has played a season inside French or English rugby surely that can only benefit them and their teammates.
That inside knowledge, that insight into how they do things differently and maybe better – surely that’s got to be a useful set of intel to bring back home.
So why are some people so against this idea? There are those who feel that it’s almost an ethical situation. Players who have left behind their own country’s club rugby should not then be allowed to achieve the great honour of pulling on their national jersey. It’s a desertion. A dismissal of the system that has brought them up and supported them. Almost as if it’s unfair for a player to want the best of both worlds.
It can also be seen that this type of behaviour – playing overseas and still being eligible for national selection – should not be allowed as it will just encourage more players to leave in the first place.
More than likely it’s going to be the better players who are tempted to leave as they will be the ones who are being approached by overseas teams and as the better players leave the domestic game, that game suffers.
There are some commentators who feel that if Australian players for example stay in Australia then they can be under closer inspection of the national coach and there can be more of a coordinated effort between NRC coaching, Super Rugby coaching and international coaching and performance.
This seems to work well in New Zealand but it does rely upon one huge factor – the Australian Super Rugby teams are their own commercial concerns and so while they may well want to integrate with the Wallabies as much as possible, their top objective is to win.
Sadly those two drivers are not always aligned and when they are not, is it really fair to expect the coach at the Rebels or the Tahs to put the Wallabies ahead of their Club?
In countries like England, it can be argued that there is a great depth in the rugby system to fill the gaps of any players who want to head off overseas and take themselves out of national selection. This is supported by the recent U20s World Championship win.
Other nations, however, dream of the depth that England have. Places like South Africa and Australia need to have the very best domestic rugby product to ensure that they are appealing to viewers, sponsors and players of all ages.
The ARU in particular face tough challenges at home in the battle for attention. The AFL and NRL compete toe to toe with Super Rugby, and having top talent play their weekly rugby overseas makes it harder to appeal to a larger audience.
With the Rugby Championships just about six weeks away and then the international tours a couple of months after that, there will be plenty of opportunity to debate this issue. For now, it seems like coaches such as Eddie Jones and Michael Cheika are going to have to restrict their selection to home-based players (although somehow I don’t think Jones is too bothered right now).
BeastieBoy
Guest
we need to grow our own and increase the base beyond private school pathways and foreign imports. Lets grow our juniors. Lets have articles about our juniors on this site too.
Wal
Roar Guru
Jeez Jerry How long do you want me to spend researching :) Rene Ranger has had his moment but never as good as before Troy Flavell Adam Thonpson Richard Kahui James O'Connor Frans Steyn Dan Vickerman Its not say that they weren't still very good players upon their return just very few come back better. Some due to age some injury, but you do have to say as a general rule it is much harder to find players who have left and returned a better product than before.
Jerry
Guest
Not really a bit enough sample size to be making any useful conclusions, IMO.
Wal
Roar Guru
The only players I can think of that had a successful returns are Leon MacDonald and Jerome Kaino, who both had injury issues before going to Japan so it was more of a reconditioning program. Luke McCalister Chris Jack Hosea Gear Isaac Ross All struggled to get back to the previous levels prior to European sojourns. This probably has a fair bit to do with the grind and toughness of the European comps wearing down the body. Where as Nonu was even able to do an off-season in Japan without any long term form damage.
J_D_J
Roar Rookie
Toomua will be a big loss
woodart
Guest
best post in this thread, this morning , warren gatland is saying that the lions next year will do two games while missing players that will stay behind to finish club season. this makes picking overseas players risky. this is why nzrfu will NOT pick overseas based players, and until there is a global season introduced, a bad decision. on another reason, most or all Kiwi players coming home have found they have slowed down in play overseas and take time to reajust to the speed of the game back home. this would also apply to aussie players returning from fr,eng or japan.
Wal
Roar Guru
Rhino SA will be back. As an outsider the biggest issue I can see is administration and talent development, which you highlight above. Very few outstanding prospects appear out of nowhere in NZ. But even more so, there is an incredible knowledge of what makes a greater team player. Guys who might be a bit deficient at earlier ages are nurtured to highly successful professional players. Anybody can pick a Dan Carter or Richie McCaw, but longer term development of players like Nonu, who didn't play age group rugby and was very one dimensional earlier in his career. Or the knowledge that Conrad Smith whilst nowhere near as exciting as many centres brings so much more to that role.
Wal
Roar Guru
There is one name that makes overseas selections a major headache. Mourad Boudjellal As long as personalities like his invest massive amounts of money in clubs. They are going to feel they have ownership of players and make it as difficult as possible for them to represent their nation.
Charging Rhino
Roar Guru
"Places like South Africa" - Mate I don't think you realise how much depth there is in South African rugby, the problem is just bringing them through the correct channels to professionalism, like a lot of my friends who were very good players but ended up doing a bunch of other stuff after school and university. The number of players dwarfs Australia and NZ and is 2nd only to England. It's actually amazing how or why South Africa doesn't dominate world rugby, or even dominate Australia at international level when you compare the level of overall interest, media attention, player numbers and focus rugby receives between the two countries. I've lived in both so I know what I'm talking about. The difference in overall interest between England and SA is a big one too (I also lived in England for 4 years). Rugby is everywhere in the news in SA and young kids know all the players name of their own teams, plus international teams too. At school boy level in some schools you will get 10 teams in each age group of Under 14, Under 15, Under 16 and Open. i.e. 15 players each in A team B team, C ,D, E, F, G, H I & J. Actually in Open I'v known schools to go up to the 13ths and 14ths!! At my school we had the 7ths & 8ths. The Varsity Cup is televised and brimming with talent. At U20 level, I don't want to blame quotas as there are many exceptional players of colour, but it's unfortunate that the selection HAS to include half the team being non white regardless of form or whether another player is better but just because he happens to be white. Plus theres the Vodacom Cup, Currie Cup B division, Currie Cup, Super Rugby, Schools Boy matches etc etc which all get TV time. I don't know how we're not even better than we are and not dominating world rugby. There's a big difference between just depth and really good depth. Clearly we're doing something wrong at developing and maximising our talent of players and coaches because even New Zealand would dream to have our numbers and setup in terms of the depth SA has. But hey, NZ are doing quite alright :-) Need to catch them!!
taylorman
Guest
Its been well documented on the ROAR how playing Pocock has not worked in the lost tests last year in terms of how the back row functioned AO Tear Roar so I'd suggest it is probably you that is new. Don't recall you being part of those discussions either. Do the numbers on the back rows at Eden park and the WCup final.
Mapu
Guest
Australian back row got schooled against ABs except Sydney test.pocock at 8 was the problem
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
New to the Roar then? Cheika plays Pocock out of position. It worked very well. Yet you get articles and posts written about how wrong it is. All international teams play players out of position. When Deans did it it worked well too.
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
Yes he has but these guys wouldnt know that. He doesnt play for the Reds and thats all they seem interested in.
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
Giteau dudnt excell at tests? Well thats amazingly wrong. Are you serious? The guy was often considered one of the very best players at international level in the entire world! He was twice nominated for best international player in the world. Why do I get so annoyed with ignorance like this?
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
He dropped Higgers because he was... A) Not very good at international level to date. B) He was going overseas. C) Pocock and Hooper at 7 & 8 were outstanding. Now Ive told you why but being Richard tou will not accept it. So why even ask? Ive not heard 1 player, insider or top rugby commentator complain about "p00per". Ive only ever heard great praise for it and thats because it has been an excellent backrow. Then you come on the Roar and people who think they know better moan on and on about the Wallabies greatest asset. Its mind numbing. The Hooper, Pocock and Fardy combo has been brilliant and 2 of them were nominated as the best players on earth after a simply outstanding 2015. But no...it wont do being one of, if not, the best backrows on earth. Whatever.
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
Based on what? I doubt Cooper would have been selected if he could have been. JOC over Horne in hindsight, OK but I would have picked Mitchell or Betham myself.
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
Im not sure Cooper would have added and neither should you be. His form at all levels has been pretty poor. His form for Australia in 2015 was consistently lower than what Foley gave us against England. For Toulon he hasnt gone much better and to say its been a failure moving thete is pretty fair. Quade needs to come back and show us that hes better, something he hast done for a long time.
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
Yeah I can understand young players giving up on national selection because the coach picks somebody ahead of them. Actually I cant and thats always happened. They should be inspired to play better, not sulk, give up and leave.
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
Well thats completely untrue. Not 1 tiny bit of that comment has any truth or wisdom to it Buzzard. Keep it real.
A.O.Tear Rower
Guest
Richard makes up things to suit his conspiracy fantasy.