The ongoing woes of England football

Thanks JB...and of course "El Tel" - Venables. the main prob i thought was the lack of trying to coach overseas for brits. not that they cant, rather they wont. same with the players. Rush's quote re italy comes to mind (yes he was Weslh) (against Keegan at Hamburg, Toshack (welsh again) Lineker, McNamara etc etc).

Waz- The games you speak of could have been 1978 or '80 both won by England 1-0 or 2-0.You are nearly correct in your statement but the goalie on each occasion was Alan Rough who played for Partick Thistle and on both occasions there were a number of Aberdeen,Celtic and Rangers players in the team. I wpuld think it would be the 1978 game you attended for apart from the goalie, Tom Forsyth and Willie Johnston were the only outfield players who played with a Scottish team,Rangers. In 1980 the team had 5 "native" players ,Danny McGrain and Roy Aitken from Celtic,Alex McLeish and Willie Miller from Aberdeen and Paul Hegarty from Dundee United.Hope these names help to re-kindle your memories. You would have enjoyed the crowds no doubt, over 85,000 at both games, giving vent to the "Hampden Roar".Cheers jb

whiskeymac -Although it has never been widely recognised by modern day fans the coaching revolution that ultimately engulfed the whole of Europe was actually started by an Englishman Jimmy Hogan,who, utterly disappointed with the English hierarchy's attitude, took his ideas to the continent where he allied himself to another "thinker" Hugo Meisl,an Austrian, and it is widely accepted among scholars of the game that Hogan was the "father of the tactical revolution" Other English coaches who worked on the continent ,before and after the war are quite common,Arthur Rowe,Jack Reynolds & Vic Buckingham are all recognised as having made substantial contributions to what was to become known in those days as "continental football" which actually had its roots in a performance given by a Scottish team back in the 1920's when they "thrashed "England at Wembley and became known as the "Wembley Wizards". Hogan was often quoted as saying that performance had shown England how the game should be played. Cheers jb

Inter milan? Robson at barca in the past too. Mclaren pretending to be dutch. Outliers maybe but hodgson has a good euro cv.

Pretty sure he won the title in his last season Roy!

He probably had the most money to spend in his 20 yrs. During his last two or three years the other leading clubs could match him for cash and he did not have the same success. Wonderful career however.

Kaks- I know it cannot he classed as "current" but only 3 years ago a "British" manager was being hailed as the greatest manager ever in his 20 odd year reign at Man Utd. Cheers jb

Stop blaming foreigners. Englishmen can't coach, period! They lack people skills.

Definitely, but that tactical foresight back in the day by British managers is completely different to the current British managers who seem to lack the ability to adapt to the faster, more technical manner of modern football. There are some British managers who seem to be breaking the mould, like Eddie Howe at Bournemouth, who seem to be implementing more 'modern' tactics, but there arent many like him.

Agree JB. In my post below I described Ramsey as "tactically astute"

Fadida and Kaks. In 1966 world football was at a crossroads, for from 1959 onward the world game was in the grip of Italy's great gift to the game,catenaccio,which, as one who saw it used was an absolute blight on the game with it's ultra emphasis on guarding a slender lead at all times,using not only skill but very definitely some doubtful tactics, like tripping, pulling shirts or other petty fouls,anything to break down the flow of the play. Come 1966 and it took Ransey with his complete about-turn on tactical line ups,followed by Stein's Celtic in 1967, who ran Inter Milan into the ground in winning the European Cup, to be followed by Busby's United winning the same trophy in 1968. Those three victories in 3 consecutive years signalled the death knell for that defensive type of "winning" , so those three, Ramsey,Stein and Busby, have to be given some credit for what they did. Cheers jb,

But aren't you making my point for me? As I said, in 1976-77, the ABC was showing WC qualifiers featuring England and Italy.

Agree Kaks

Thanks for summing up all of my points Roy. You believe that England won then, and don't win now, all because of grit, fight and the"bulldog" spirit. That team in, 66 was a team, led by a tactically astute manager. Was Charlton better than Gerard or Rooney? Hurst or Hunt better than Shearer or Owen, J Charlton better than Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell etc? I don't think so. Ball better than Butt or Ince? It was no brilliant side that won the WC. Home advantage was crucial. The world has caught up, and gone past England, who are too often looking over their shoulder for challengers who have long gone past

Easy Bob. A football culture that priorities size and athleticism over technique. A chronic failure to recognize the misguided culture. A lack of football intelligence, as exemplified by Fat Sam being the "best option". Actually, a culture that would see a poor English option chosen over a better foreign one. England produce sub standard players technically, and sub standard coaches tactically. They fall to recognize or correct either. They think it is because they lack "passion" and that foreign managers can't instill "passion" One that uses the excuse of "too many foreigners are ruining it for our English lads". Blatantly not true Hope that helps "Pip"

Football in 1966 differs to football now. Most modern teams are head and shoulders above England tactically, technically and physically. Back in 1966 it was a lot more even.

Agree with your first three paragraphs Fadida. The English curriculum in training their young players is horrendously outdated, which is why their players are found out at the top level. They severely lack technical ability which is why the English team looks horrible, no one in the team can pass it! It's not foreigners that are the issue. The foreigners are brought in because they are better players. If the English were good enough, they would be picked. If the English were good enough, foreign clubs would be trying to sign them. The fact that Allardyce is the best English candidate, with Steve Bruce in second, show's how tactically naive English football is. Allardyce a defensive "lump the ball forward" game. This type of football is extremely outdated. Steve Bruce does the same. It is comical really... The English issue is at the grass roots, not at the top.

Fadida. So what you are saying is that England won a World Cup with players who possessed of a lot less skill than the more recent England players of today. Maybe the 1966 team had more guts, determination, tenacity, and will to win, a quality that has been sadly lacking for along time now.

Amazing comment, considering we had the Euros beamed live (every game) in Australia in Bein sport & SBS had quite a few games as well. The Euros are the 3rd biggest sporting event in the world, but I suppose with Italy knocked out early you switch over to croquet!!!

It aint rocket science - they aren't good enough. The same reason Zimbabwe for instance haven't won too much recently.....