It's official: Stiles to be named Reds coach

Stiles sounds like he's a good choice from what Ive read so it will all be up to him. I just found the method of using Rennie pre Super rugby an odd one. I thinks its fairly obvious that NZ knows how to recognise a good coach when it sees one and clearly we got Rennies appointment spot on. He won back to back first two years. No facts or figures are going to explain how he did that in any meaningful way. They picked him to win the title and he delivered. For me its a bit similar to you arguing the merits of Quade Cooper. No matter what numbers, anecdotes, scenarios you dig up, Quade will always be 'flakey'. Always has been, always will be. No statistics are going to convince the majority he's anything but. Sometimes he runs hot sometimes hes awful. Sometimes hes both at the same time. Reason Cheika played Foley at the World cup and not Quade will have had a lot to do with one simply being more consistent than the other.

So have we got any good backup locks in the mix now since then? With Styles and Thorn it would seem like an ideal combo to at least continue a strong set piece.

TWAS. My point with stats is your measure of success is mostly held together by simple things you can find and read on the net. There is virtually no context. But I am not going to argue with you as I simply don't know enough to put the right context around it. My point about Rennie being rubbish was to pose the idea that if he had been so ordinary, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been offered the job. Whether or not he earns a tick from you or me are probably not the ticks he looks for and I'd suggest there was a bit more to him than what you have dumbed it down to for the purpose of making your point. My point about legacies is not about Sh..g on someone else's, but rather building on it and respecting that early on, the legacy of the previous admin has some impact. Anyway I agree that Stiles is probably a couple of years shy of being the ideal option and wonder a little whether he has the strategic and tactical ability to take this team forward quickly in the short term. But not is he the worst option at this juncture. I just think comparing him to Rennie is a little flawed when you clearly aren't close to the decision and details which went in to determining his appointment. But the fact you don't is cool too.

Oh and TMan, that was meant to read that my friend didn't expect Eroni to know him... We all obviously knew who Eroni was. To be fair they had crossed paths in school boy rugby.. But that was like once. And clearly they both player centre :-)

That nothing is a sure thing. Stiles has probably done all a coach can in that he's been absolutely dominant as a head coach at the lower level, and his areas of responsibility have been strong in his role as a Super Rugby Assistant. What does that mean? Very little it seems. Unless somebody is a repeat success at that level, it's all a punt.

His stint with the Under 20s was hugely successful as the guy before him. But more importantly so much of the work is done at the levels below. My point is it's hard to gauge how much of a good coach Rennie is with an age group rep team. It's a constant turnover of players you get limited contact with. Interestingly his best (most successful) coaching season prior to the Chiefs was his first at NPC level in 2000. I think we are just different in Australia because we don't consider looking at past results to be sh--ing on somebody's legacy. I'm not saying he's rubbish and if you are taking that out I suggest you get some comprehension lessons. I'm saying almost all coaching appointments are a risk. Saying comparing coaches is the same as players stats is rather flawed. Player stats are driven by coach direction. Coaches are there to win every game. Not every team is capable of that, so you look at what happened before and after. The NZ U20 program has regressed since Rennie moved on. Good tick for Rennie. It was just as good before he took over. No tick for Rennie. Wellington won a title in his first season in 2000. Good tick. They didn't do it again before he went to the Hurricanes and was an assistant in a poor year. At Manawatu he undoubtedly did some good things. What he didn't do was demonstrate he could build a strong, consistent team based on the results. Clearly Rennie is a good coach, but he had been involved in more unsuccessful seasons at Senior level than successful ones prior to the Chiefs appointment. Nothing is a sure thing.

Everything is blah, blah to you TWAS. Admittedly I went off on a tangent as I reminisced a bit with TMan. Point is someone in a more important place than you or I thought his credentials stacked up across a number of different coaching gigs - all of them at least the equal and more than Stiles if you include coaching Manawatu, Wellington and a hugely successful stint as U20 coach imho. Now as I started with, I am no authority on whether or not he would make a good super rugby coach, and there are many that are a lot closer to things than I. But arguing the toss based on what you googled and your own spin... Not sure that carries too much weight. My inelegant point was that you have no idea about him or what he achieved prior to his appointment at the Chiefs, let alone the team you speak of and what Rennie actually achieved and didn't with them, certainly not enough to be any sort of authority on it. In Aus, there seems to be little respect for legacies, but I don't pretend to know the nuances. I think the environment is wuite different in NZ and hence the factors are somewhat different. And you would have to know about all that including what the challenges are and were in a place like Manawatu to make any meaningful comment on his stint there. Maybe he was rubbish and got lucky with a good U20 team and picked up a Lions team at the peak and just suddenly came right when he took over a SR side... but I wouldn't bet on it. And I tend to think, comparing him to Stiles and whether or not Stiles is a success is much like comparing two players based on s handful of stats. Great for arguing a point on a blog site, but not terribly important when it comes to actually making meaningful comparisons or assessments. But that is probably all blah, blah.

Except Twas what are you trying to get out of the comaprison? That because in summarising that somehow Rennie was hopeless before getting the Chiefs stint that Stiles can also be as successful as Rennie? Bit of a far fetched way to make a point isnt it? Rennie is now one of the most astute coaches around, so what does his priors have to do with anything? There are many, many coaches with poor, average and good records before they took up Super coaching.Very few have gone on to be as successful as Rennie. If you think theres some magic parallel I think youll be gravely mistaken. The connection between Stiles and Rennie is...zip, except that now, both are Super coaches.

sorry, shaky.

Seemed mostly down when Rennie was there. It's hardly the same to say a coach over 5 seasons failed to progress a team. A coach's job is to win. A fair assessment is comparing it to the year before (i.e. if the team keeps improving against opposition he's doing a good job - likewise if you aren't moving forward, you're actually going backward when everybody else moves forward around you). Would you say that if after 5 seasons in the NPC top flight, a highlight season where the team won 4 games can possibly be a great stint? You can say all you want about how you have to know Manawatu, blah, blah blah but over 5 seasons you have had the opportunity to change the entire culture of a place, attract outside talent, etc. We aren't judging a guy on a year or two here. We are talking about 7 seasons in total where in some there team won zero games. The Reds showed this year that on their day, any team is capable of at least one upset. Manawatu may have a very proud history but I very much doubt Rennie's period was part of that. I'm not trying to criticize Rennie, I'm pointing out how good coaches can still struggle to get success at certain environments for whatever reason. But people who try to say they knew Rennie was a sure thing based on that stint, are probably the type of person that's a real genius with the benefit of hindsight...

Yeah Geoff was a part time goal kicker. Bloody good player too. Hard man, as were Knight, Cowboy (hit man), Frank etc. A tough team and really tough forwards. Personally I like tough forwards. They make me feel safe :-) My friend met Eroni at the aftermatch of a game. He didn't think he would know him from a bar of soap and he came up to him shook his hand and knew all about his rugby pedigree. I remember my friend saying how humble a guy Eroni was and how nice. My mate was playing his first game for Waikato B at centre and Eroni had just made the AB's. I have met Michael and Tui at different times around the place. As with Eroni, they are the most humble, grounded, kind and open people you could ever meet. And yet look at what they have achieved. I feel privileged to have met people like that let alone play against and with them.

I know what you mean by the last para, some things just need be left unsaid, but two of those you mention Jones and Clarke, two of the nicest people I've ever had the pleasure to meet, Eroni fairly close to my partners family through the period. Don't know why I keep lumping Seear from Otago in with that crowd...I think it's because he kicked that long goal against France and I liken him to...was it Geoff Old who also as an 8 kicked some goals around that time? But yeah what a side. The Waikato side with Major and Smith on the wings was another at the time that moved the ball beautifully...three quick passes with the inside backs virtually standing next to eachother then Stone sending those two flyers away in space you just don't see these days.

Bit my point was Manawatu is a very proud club and has a rich history. Obviously the period you speak of was a highlight, but that is the great thing about all these clubs, is their proud traditions and history. And sometimes comments which demean them to what you might find on wiki doesn't do it justice. I was reading a comment you made about Auckland club sides the other day and how proud you were to know most of them and their strip. I thought it was a nice nod to the importance and vibrant history of rugby at all levels.

Yeah. They were phenomenal, Gsry Knight, Rollerson, Donaldson, Frank Olover and Cowboy have to be some of my favourite players. Sadly the mid 80's was not the hey day (which was a few years earlier) although they were still in the first division. By the mid to late 80's Auckland was getting it together. You know what it's like TMan. Playing in Auckland club footy you got to play alongside/against players like the Brooke brothers, Kirwan, Fitzy, Jones, Stanley, Ckarke etc. etc. The opportunities we have had in rugby is extremely humbling. I worked really hard on and off the field, just to feel worthy of playing and hopefully to earn some respect in whatever jersey you pull on. Among the great things, there were a few not so great memories and I saw some pretty ordinary things by players I had looked up to, but that is not for discussion here.

Loved the Manawatu side just a bit earlier than that Chivas, around 79-83 odd with Hugh Blair, Granger, cowboy, Old, Seear, Rollerson, Calleson, Love, Hemara etc etc...and about another 8 or 9 well known figures, some you must know well if that's the case. Don't think I've seen so many good players for the one relatively small union at the same time, I could probably name an entire 15 now. One of my all time favourite sides. Nice clean straight running lines and Blair was a sight with his almost Moses like appearance. Very good memories of that side.

@Bakkies, another guy I wish all the success in the world. Good Chiefs and Waikato player :-)

Good point TWAS. I am hoping he is going to be an awesome coach. From what I hear he has the potential. With respect to Stiles. I don't know much about him, but Inwoukd be interested to know what positive things he has done. But he sounds like he is supported by the team and that has to be an excellent first step and a pretty good endorsement. But Ibsm interested to know his ability to cosch and set game plans at this level. Even if he is a season or two off, if he has all the makings... then good luck to him and the Reds. Hope he is cut the slack to have a decent crack at it. Putting it out there and talking about winning the Aussie conference before a boot has even been put to leather might be a bit premature however. Hope it doesn't get thrown back at him.

Out of curiosity TWAS, how many games gave you watched Manawatu play? You seem to be quite knowledgeable about Rennies credentials, but it sounds more based on something you might have googled than anything else, which is up there with comparing players and arguing the toss based on some simple stats. Me I don't follow them, but I did play s couple of games for them back in the mid 80's when I did a couple of stints at Massey. But that doesn't make me any authority on them now... Oh and my cousin played for them for a number of seasons and he was a pretty decent player. They have been a bit of an up and down side over the years, but they have had their share of talented players and have been at least the equal of any of the Aussie NRC sides. But these days I would now bow to people like Jerry and others who's knowledge is no doubt far superior to my own with respect to how Manawatu is travelling and any emerging players they may or may not have.

Thanks Jack!

So? He's got no experience to suggest he is a good Head Coach. He hasn't even coached Super Rugby. His endorsement is based on being a good Assistant Coach and yet to have the chance to fail as a Head Coach.