Blues upset Bombers in the wet 57-42

Jack - if we truly are 2 years away from finals I would suggest a 30 year old Gibbs would be more worth at that point than a 19 year old first round pick. If we do let Gibbs go it will be for "above market".

Yes perhaps the point about keeping Gibbs is a good one but I am simply suggesting we let him go next year at 28 for a first round draft pick as we are two years away for finals

Bobburra - "Based on the way Phillips played last year it is more likely than unlikely that he play regularly" I see it the opposite, I think Casboult and Kreuzer compliment each other better as one is the ruckman who can drift forward while the other is the forward who can pinch hit in the ruck but Phillips and Kreuzer are both better being the number one ruck.

There's a bit of Steve Smith to Casboult - takes some absolutely stunning grabs that few other players could hold but also drops a hell of a lot of sitters

Travis - "Why doesn’t Kruezer become a permanent forward and Phillips do the rucking." Yesterday Kreuzer had eight clearances and 11 tackles - that is why he shouldn't become a permanent forward.

Yes I know, but in both the actual games against Hawthorn and Brisbane, Essendon steadied and were able to run out the match by winning. If I was to ramble on about pre season form I would say how terrible Carlton was to lose to St Kilda by 90 odd points, but I have figured those games are pretty meaningless. I'm happy we caught them on a bad day. Make no mistake, Essendon have some quality players and as much as I hate them I can see they will come very close to making the finals unless teams can do what Carlton did yesterday and come up with a clear strategy to make things harder for them. We put an extra man behind the ball so we could chop off the long kick from the corridor. Essendon's biggest strength is it's quick ball movement from the midfield to the forwards. Saying they have a poor defense doesn't mean anything if they are winning games in shoot outs. By stopping the quick ball movement and being able to keep possession we were able to lock the ball in our forward line. The problem is many other teams won't think to do that and will be too worried with their own game to come up with a strategy to stop them first.

All I am putting forward at the moment is that the team could have all those four big blokes available at some time, no room for all of them. Based on the way Phillips played last year it is mor likely than unlikely that he play regularly, as with Kreuzer, that leaves a toss up between Casboult & Mckay ( given the wraps on this kid). Casboults' returns while serviceable are not "up there". Unfortunately every time he gets a shot on goal everyone wonders "what is he going to with this one". He, in my opinion, is the most likely to be dropped if it came to the crunch, that is of course assuming that Phillips gets back in, and Mckay is selected to play instead of being named in the squad.

Travis - I didn't see Casboult drop 1 mark he should have taken - with the conditions the way they were yesterday marking was incredibly difficult and contested marking almost impossible - Casboult got to plenty of contests yesterday and made sure the ball didn't come out easy - that was his role yesterday and he did it well. Also in 2014 in 19 games Casboult had 200 disposals, took 108 marks and kicked 15 goals 11. In 2016 in 20 games he had 191 disposals, took 107 marks and kicked 18 goals 18 - I think he gets judged very harshly.

I'm with bobburra on this one Macca. Casboult has a big frame, good hands and the capasity to dominate games as a big centre half forward or full forward. Obviously the delivery hasn't helped but in 2014 he showed that he could play. His last 3 seasons have been very poor. To not win Carlton's goal kicking last year is a huge disappointment. His kicking needs to get a lot better and yesterday just about every time the ball was kicked inside 50 he dropped marks that he should of taken. I watched Phillips play against Essendon last year (I think it might of been round 6) and he played outstanding and then got injured. Why doesn't Kruezer become a permanent forward and Phillips do the rucking.

bobburra - Last year Casboult averaged about 50% more possessions, 134% more marks, 125% more goals and 130% more contested marks than Phillips and so far this year Casboult is averaging 9 hit outs per game compared to Phillips 16 in 2016 - when you also consider Kreuzer's increased performance is quite possibly tied to spending more time in the ruck I can't see Phillips pushing Casboult out anytime soon. McKay won't be used to ruck so him coming in won't be at Casboult's expense - more likely to be MacReadie or Rowe (even though he has been good so far) that makes way for Weitering to go back and McKay take his spot.

I said "might have flogged them" the point is we will never know but what we do know is that is wasn't just the weather that won the game for the blues.

Travis, I agree in the main with points, especially about Casboult & Thomas. I think Casboult is there until Phillips comes back, that then leaves a selection choice of Phillips, Kreuzer, Casboult, & McKay, one in the ruck,two of the remaining three forward.Thomas,well in all probability will not be there next year, if some of the kids some a bit more who knows Thomas may get dropped,until then Carlton fans can only hope in the main he is on the plus side. As far as if it was a dry day I think Carlton would still have had a good chance because Essendon are developing a habit of giving up decent leads to either scrap home or get overrun and lose. Think back to their last JLT game they were 40 odd points up at half time & lost by around 26, an 11 goal turn around. That tells me that Essendon have a shaky backline while they have what could be a damaging forward half. Oh well, it was only one game, a good result for Carlton on their road in their attempt to climb up the ladder.

I was a MASSIVE Daisy fan whe he was at the Pies. Now he would just about be the worst player in the comp who is guaranteed a game every week. He adds absolutely nothing to the Blues. In a game that was crying out for line-breaking run-and-carry he spent basically the whole game trying to get on the end of an easy goal over the top.

Flogged is a really strong word. We won't 'flog' many teams this year. I agree we played much better, our structures were definitely better and the we played the conditions superbly. But Essendon are a speedy team, it was obvious their skills would be poor and we would turn it into a scrap. The recruitment of the young players in the last 2 years is similar to how we build the 68, 70 and 72 premierships. Ian Robertson (1966) Vin Waite (1966) Percy Jones (1966) Robert Walls (1967) Alex Jeasoulenko (1967) Ted Hopkins (1968) Then after the 68 flag: David McKay (1969) Bruce Doull (1969) Syd Jackson (1969) Barry Armstrong (1969) John O'Conell (1970) Geoff Southby (1971) Interesting the way we are building talent in blocks once again.

Travis - I don't think you can say categorically the weather won it for us - we outplayed the bombers, we used the ball better and we worked harder - if we played like that in the dry we might have flogged them. We do lack goal kickers but we have players developing in that area. I agree on Thomas but not Casboult - in conditions that didn't suit him I thought he was really good yesterday, the stats won't reflect it but he presented and made sure the ball came to ground - he was really important in allowing us to lock the ball in our forward 50.

Yeah I read on the website that Polson and Fisher were very good in the reserves on the weekend. It is just so exciting we have finally got the draft right in the last 2 years and a young squad is starting to take shape among the older brigade. Its amazing that there are so many young tallents that are playing well when they aren't even in their prime. I have to say though. 1: We still do lack in goal kickers. 2: The weather was the reason we won yesterday, if it had been a dry open game, Essendon would of won. 3: Casboult and Thomas are letting the team down. Long term they aren't major problems though if we keep growing

Travis - great to see you have had an epiphany - just wait until you see the likes of McKay, Polson, Fisher and Cuningham push into the side - we will see more dark days in coming months (and years) but the future looks bright. One of the best things is that the likes of Williamson and MacReadie aren't coming from first round picks and Marchbank, Plowman and Pickett all look bargains - SOS clearly knows what he is doing which gives me confidence for future recruiting.

PaulD - my question is " I wonder what his flaw was thought to be?" saying “People are overlooked for a variety of biased reasons and perceived flaws. Age, appearance, personality.” doesn't narrow it down at all. Looking at Tom play his first game yesterday his size and shape was that of a player who had been in the system much longer than a few months, he looked level headed, used the ball well and basically seemed at home at the level - obviously there was a perceived flaw I just can't see what it would be, especially given his testing.

To all Carlton fans out there who I probably offended over the past months, especially Macca, I apologize for my attitude towards the Carlton Football Club. Genuinely from what I saw I though I thought this football club was shot and even though I could see the talent coming through, I thought the attitude within the club was completely wrong as we seemed more about growth than winning games. It was stupid of me to go on pre season form as that is the prefect time to experiment with a few things. My attitude towards Bolton was completely wrong. I thought he didn't care about winning, but I have realized there is a difference between not being defined by wins and losses by creating pressure than not caring at all. Yesterday was the proudest moment I have had as a Carlton supporter in the past 15 years. To get up the way we did with those young kids showing so much fight is fantastic. Plowman is going to be a gun, Petrevski-Seton is too, Marchbank and Wietering are becoming the leaders of that back line while Williamson was outstanding on debut. The core group of Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps, Kruezer and Simpson have stood up too. To get revenge over those bombers after last year was just brilliant and standing in the pouring rain seeing those players play with such heart and fight for every ball like soldiers despite the obvious lack of talent made me proud to support Carlton. Even though I thought the rebuild wouldn't work, I am so happy to be proven wrong (which I have said before). This may take time, but older generation supporters like me are finally coming around to the wait. I have learned for Carlton to be successful in the modern game, we need to adapt to the modern success systems like we used to years ago. I have learned we can't look back from now, we can only look forward. I have also bought a membership after yesterday for the first time since 2002 and will continue to if we can play like this each week!!

Still don't know who you're talking about. What's his first name? You're the one pushing the theory. Advance a reason as to why. I'm going with moneyball. "People are overlooked for a variety of biased reasons and perceived flaws. Age, appearance, personality."