Does the Barassi line mean anything anymore?

@ concerned supporter I am willing to justify my generalistion, but much of my reasons (but not all) are based on my questions to you on 5.3 above, at 2.40 pm; and 6.3, at 10.50am -which you did not answer in your reply to me on 6.3 (except for the Burnie TSL exit). I like to obtain a better understanding of Australian society, and current trends, so I would appreciate it if you would first answer my questions to you of 5.3 and 6.3. Also, can you respond with any information or evidence that would suggest, as a generalisation, that the enthusiasm and competency of the average unpaid volunteer League community Club official or coach is usually better than their average Aust. Football or Union counterpart? As to your sarcastic question, I'm not paid by the AFL. It is good that you are unbiased...you don't have much company on this site.

Simmo, i havent lived in Sydney for a number of years, so i am only guessing, but Sydney has had quite a lot of white flight and sea changers, maybe they are the same thing!, in this case anglo kids who normally would have played RL have left Sydney, i remember reading somewhere that around 50% of both Parramatta and Penrith junior comps have (biggest JRL nurseries in the world) are Polynesian kids, that was a few years ago, my recollection is plenty of Sydney families moved to the CC in the 1970'80's and then 10 years later plenty of Sydney anglo families moved to SE QLD in what has been a pretty quick demographic change. The void in Sydney has been filled filled by nationalities ( Asian, Indian etc ) who have absolutely no interest in RL, that could answer your question about SOO When i do club/team counts, i just use club numbers really, all else is pretty well fluff except for private school comps that are usually as serious and sometimes more so than club. http://aflsj.com.au/fixtures-results/ Some kids from the independent comp may also play in club as is it a different day, however the older you get the more unlikely this happens, they normally just play in one comp.

Probably the most biased statement ever on the Roar, by the Joy of Ox. "Many believe that, as a GENERALISATION, the enthusiasm and competency of the average unpaid volunteer Aust. Football and Union community Club official or coach is usually better than their average League counterpart. Are you aware of recent media reports that seem, arguably, to confirm that?" This is absolute unsubstantiated, guessing game rubbish from an AFL self admiration shill, similar to Aligee.. .Paid or unpaid by the AFL, Joy?

(yep, FNSW and NNSW Football are two separate bodies. NNSWF covers Newcastle to the Qld border, FNSW the rest of the state.) Agreed on all points. I'm actually surprised how few people have ever reached the same conclusions. What I've observed from both RU and RL people are that they don't feel threatened by soccer because "soccer has always been ahead", which is not actually true to begin with and ignores how far ahead it has pulled over time. Secondly, they are more openly concerned with AFL, despite its much smaller scale in NSW. It's a classic example of the boiling frog principle. I'll leave you with this thought - is it a coincidence that NSW has only beaten Qld in Origin once in the last 15 years and that the Wallabies haven't once won the Bledisloe over the same period? Boiled frogs.

@ Aligee Why will "girls growth at club level will be a lot harder than womens to quantify"? Both are on Sporting Pulse. If you are referring to U5 -U8 Auskick numbers, I agree. About 30% of Auskick numbers are female, IIRC. In schools, with internal girls' competitions and Programs, it is opaque (until code Annual reports are published) Interestingly, in The Telegraph on 7.3.2018, N.Cordy has written " GWS membership is set to grow to 25,000 this year". This seems very unlikely to me -but would be a major achievement if it eventuates.

Thinking of doing an article on the rise and rise female club/team growth, but may have to wait until draws are out for this year, apparently 2 divisions this year in WA through the WAAFL, ATM there are 2 divisions through the WWAFL, new comps in NNSW, big increases in women's teams in AFL QLD and SA and of course VIc, will be interesting to see what the increase in club/team growth is this year. Comparing the amount of teams this year to last year will give a fair indicator of what is happening. Girls growth at club level will be a lot harder to than womens to quantify.

@ Simmo, agree about Auskick in Northern States, much of it is run through after schools etc at the school and not through the local club where is really where you want it

@ PB Is NNSW and NSW soccer 2 different bodies ?, i have always assumed NSW soccer supplies about 50% of the countries soccer players. IMO the real reason why many NRL clubs crowds in Sydney have not increased in line with population increases is due to Sydney being quite soccer centric rather than RL. No matter what people on this site say about RL and soccer being quite compatible and no angst, it is crap, soccer in Sydney has decimated RL numbers from around the 1970/80's, there is no going back and that was about the time people started having smaller families, handling kids with kid gloves etc etc etc.

One of the biggest growth areas has been female participation - the 2012 to 2017 total numbers having risen from 136K, to 169K, 194K, 318K in 2015, 380K in 2016 and last year to 463K. Many new dedicated female teams - in 2015 were 629, up to 983 in 2016 and 1690 last year. There will also be very many girls in schools playing who didn't before. I knew there was something 'a brewin' when back in 2015 our nearby very Catholic and very soccer Catholic School St Monica's (Epping/Melb), one that we inspected prior to our boys heading off to school and they don't have an oval on site on the main campus but they had the first FIFA approved synthetic soccer pitch. But - in that same year - a media release about how they had recently added womens/girls AFL to their sporting calendar and already had almost 100 wanting to play after 2 years earlier just 27. At that time, the girls were playing generally in round robin tournaments internally and developing to playing 'friendlies' against other colleges. Seeing something like that convinced me something was building and it has continued and that's why I'll support the AFLW come what may - it's doing more for the long term security of Australian Football than anyone or anything.

#Simmo Interesting read. I wonder how it sits now 5 odd years later. The female participation over the last 3-4 years (2014-17) has sky rocketed. #The Joy Of X The AFL Annual Report for 2016 put total participation of 1,404,176 which was combination of program (6 wks or more) and competition (clubs/schools - 6 wks or more). There then was a reference to 2million+ promotional experiences community/school which caters for the 1 day to a couple of sessions. So the increase from 2016 to 2017 was around 150K in total, and claiming 2.16 mill promo experiences. The AFL include 'social' footy into the total for competition (so that can include double ups). The FFA registration stats for 2016 were 'only' 1,188,911. That included 499,361 'outdoor' which combined MiniRoos (42.9%), Youth (31.1%) and senior (25.9%). The rest (689,550) included both school progs (36.2%) & comps (31.5%), Social (6.3%) and Futsal (3.3%) and 'Tournaments/Events (22.8%). The latter accounted for 157,284 and I really struggle to see how that won't be double dipping. The partial surprise is that for NSW, they have Football NSW and Northern NSW FA. And then Canberra too. Football NSW is 44.6% of Total FFA. Nrth NSW is 12.9% and ACT is 3.5%. So, NSW/ACT accounts for 61% of the national outdoor FFA numbers. That is astounding when we hear how many people go on about the Vic centricity of Aust Footy. The AFL numbers for 2016 showed the comps state by state split: Vic 43%, WA 17%, NSW/ACT 15%, QLD 11%, SA 9, Tas 3% and NT 2%. So - outside of Vic, the rest of the country has 57% vs FFA outside of NSW the rest has 39%. Doing a roughly apples with apples for 2016 re the Annual reports. Code...............FFA..........AFL Outdoor Intro 214,414......vs......195,719 'Club' 284,947.....vs......360,648 Total 499,361.....vs......556,367 Other - Indoor 22,513 .....vs...... ----- School Comp 217,022.....vs......270,337 School Prog 249,354.....vs...... 536,026 Social 43,377 .....vs......22,004 Events/Tourns 157,284.....vs......------ Total 689,550.....vs...... 828,367

@simmo You said "I've been researching hard for a while now on grass roots sport (all of them)"...This seemed promising...then you said "I ignore it (ie school sport numbers)". School sport (inter and intra school competitions, Programs etc.) is VERY important. We have an increasing obesity crisis emerging amongst younger people, as well as older people. Many are agitating for it to be increased. There can be a problem with double counting in school sport (ie added to Club numbers): but it should be remembered that some private schools ban their students from playing in community clubs, due to the school concern about injury. This is particularly an issue for Aust. Football and Union ( League is very limited in Private Schools). Also, many students, from U15 onwards, don't play an additional game of Aust. Football, League or Union each week -too sore and physically demanding, prefer to concentrate on studies etc. This doesn't apply to soccer, since it is a FAR less physically demanding sport -so soccer players are far more likely to play twice/be counted in the stats twice (also, possibly be counted additionally in futsal, summer soccer, separate elite squads). You said you regard and believe the AFLNSW number of about 12,000 junior CLUB competition players (ie not U5 - U8) is verifiable on the internet...but, contrary to your comments, so are the school competition details on the internet/ school sites/Sporting Pulse! I find it very odd you dispute the public claims of expert League journalists, and also L.Daley, and RL Officials that League numbers have been in decline. What is your evidence their claims are, as you say, "BS"? Many believe that, as a GENERALISATION, the enthusiasm and competency of the average unpaid volunteer Aust. Football and Union community Club official or coach is usually better than their average League counterpart. Are you aware of recent media reports that seem, arguably, to confirm that?

I don't know, I don't follow the participation trends of football codes. I agree that rugby league has failed massively in terms of grassroots in Victoria by the fact there have only been a few Vic born players in the Storm since 1998. Who know though, there could be a generation of local players coming in the next decade who grew up watching this current champion storm side. However we know the Melbourne media for decades have painted rugby league as an extremely dangerous and thuggish sport. Origin in Melbourne again this year, we will see the usual catty remarks in the local Melbourne rags branding it as the brutish game played by low class northerners.

the source is the link in the post above mine. Pull out a calculator and check the stats

@ Post hoc @ Cousin Claudio The fact you are asking these questions (and similar comments from Cousin Claudio etc. above) show your howling at GWS is clearly based on a (rational) fear of the progress GWS is making in what was once (but certainly not now!) an Aust. Football wasteland; or you are simply ignorant. GWS is attracting sponsorship, from numerous companies, of about $10,000,000 pa -why can't long established A League, NRL or Super Rugby Clubs do this? GWS Preliminary Final 2016 ratings, against the "small Bulldogs" (but a huge Club, compared to the A League) of about 2,400,000 (admittedly, an exception for GWS) are magnificent. Can you call A League ratings magnificent? Why are they so miniscule? In 2016, GWS v. Sydney, 2 Sydney Clubs, had a crowd of 61,000 at ANZ, in the western suburbs; 2016 Prelim. 22,000 (with very expensive tickets, compared to NRL and A League) at ANZ. This could not have happened with a WS Club prior to 2012, and this Sydney rivalry will only grow over future decades. GWS membership will again be over 20,000 in 2018. Why can't most A League and Super Rugby Clubs, and some NRL clubs (who are long established) achieve this? Many A League, NRL, and Super Rugby media commentators (and many supporters in social media etc.) have recently been arguing, due to their very small crowds/expensive hiring costs, that more matches should be played in smaller stadia -for better atmosphere and TV "optics". Do you agree? You still haven't repudiated my comments re the strong growth of community Aust. Football in . Western Sydney (from 65 teams in 2012 to 155 in 2017, many more in 2018 -with additional large Auskick and school player increases) .ACT had the highest number of teams in 2017 since 1984. There will be further good growth in 2018 GWS is obviously responsible for this. Do you agree?

Simmo said | March 8th 2018 @ 10:22am It’s funny, GWS is only able to identify the location of 5000 of their 15,000 NSW members. I wonder if that 10,000 were signed up without knowing their physical address?

It's funny, GWS is only able to identify the location of 5000 of their 15,000 NSW members. I wonder if that 10,000 were signed up without knowing their physical address?

Unlike Vic., WA, and SA, who get very large football crowds -sometimes lockouts- Sydney League, Union, and soccer crowds are very small, and in decline. ANZ and Allianz are fine, comfortable stadia -but usually have swathes of empty seats: solution knock them over, spend $2.5 billion -with NO INDEPENDENT business case being able to support new stadia! FARCICAL. The NSW Govt's. own "friendly" advisory body, Infrastructure NSW, has said there will be NO economic benefit from the new stadia. In London, Berlin, and Rome, large, OVAL Olympic stadia, IIRC, are used for elite soccer clubs for their home matches -ANZ is fine as it is (and can easily be reconfigured to rectangular mode). The AFL has contributed hundreds of millions of dollars to stadia. League, Union, and soccer should ALSO make a similar contribution if they want new stadia -together with the private sector (as occurred with the MCG and Etihad, where there was minimal govt. contributions). As SMH's Fitzsimmons, and others, has convincingly argued, there is a real need for improved community sporting infrastructure in Sydney (and country NSW -remember them?). This will directly assist community participation/fitness/combat obesity/get people away from computer games ie real objective benfits for the $2.5 billion. health/psychological/community/economic benefits...and they won't have to be demolished in a few decades!

Mate Rome was not built in a day... the Giants have been there for just 5 seasons and they already pull crowds comparable to NRL clubs that have been around for 50 years... so fair shake of the sauce bottle...they do have a way to go but they’re doing fine and they’re on track, and importantly when you attend daytime Giants games there are plenty of families and kids there who are obviously the future of the club. The Giants are never going to dominate Western Sydney, which will remain RL and soccer country, but they’ll do well enough to carve out a niche... they are doing OK, and they are introducing the game to people who would never have otherwise followed an AFL (in the crowd listening to people talk it’s not uncommon to be sitting around people who are attending their first season of AFL games).

The problem with Auskick, where should we start? Most important thing is that there are multiple programs run under the same label. Some serious, some fluffy. If you're in Victoria, SA, WA Auskick means the season long game played by 5-8 year olds. SSGs the same as miniroos. Legitimately should be counted within the club system but AFL administrators don't for some reason, they give it its own category. The complicating factor is the 3 different programs that all get labelled Auskick in NSW and Qld. There's the Club Auskick the same as the southern states which has relatively low numbers compared to school Auskick which is for PE lessons and just like the programs for T-ball, rugby, athletics, football and a dozen sports the school kids get introduced to over the year. Similarly there's an after school version that runs for several hours per year as well. Those two versions of Auskick are short, lack gameplay and voluntariness as highlighted in the AFL Sydney Healthcheck http://websites.sportstg.com/get_file.cgi?id=2148289 That's a fascinating analysis for anyone interested in grassroots sport. In summary, if you're Victorian, despite perceptions to the contrary, there's a lot less of the Auskick you know and understand in NSW than the AFL administration would have you believe.

http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=2833 Canberra 4,200 Blacktown 900 Hills 800 Parramatta 550 etc etc