Is Dylan Shiel the next Dale Thomas?

Jordan - good subject matter for your first article - perhaps a little light-on with content. Good question though, and would be worth considering his role in each of the midfields of the clubs apparently looking to trade him out of GWS. My two-cents: - Saints: Steven get some support with outside run, and a little with contested ball. - Blues: Swap Cripps for Steven, and midfields are similar (Saint may be a little deeper at the moment, however Carlton may have better youth coming through). - Hawks: Have Mitchell and O'Meara with Liam Shiels as the 'elder' statesman in the midfield, along with Cousins/Worpel coming through. I think he would find it much easier to shine at Hawks, and this would be very tempting. The big questions now are: 1. $ offers from each club, will he be tempted by salary similarly to Chris Judd. 2. Whatever club he chooses being able to satisfy GWS in a trade for a contracted player, however one that is Free Agent at end of next year. One more for discussion - how on earth will C7 commentators manage with Shiels and Shiel in the same team :)

"a good 3 years as you say does not level the damage done over many years." How many years does - enough so that they are already in finals and assistance is no longer required? "it’s not unfair it’s the price that sometimes needs to be paid" And that would be fine if they could actually pay the price, at the moment they are both offering overs and still missing out. "The reason Brisbane are viewed is simply the losing margin AVG shows they are not far of it" Brisbane also had one of the lowest injury rates in the league this year while the blues were one of the worst. if we just look at 2 players in 2017 Docherty & Zorko were both AA players, in 2018 Carlon got 0 games out of Docherty while the Lions got 22 out of Zorko. If you look at Beams and Murphy as Captains the blues got 13 games out of their Captain (many of which were impacted by injury) while the Lions got 21 out of Beams. Also since 2015 the lions have taken 10 picks inside the top 25 - Hipwood and Keays were both Academy picks while they also got Witherden with their Priority pick (essentially after trading it back from 19 to 22). If you contrast that with the blues they have taken 10 picks inside the top 30 but they have got no AFL assistance for any of them. "Do you want to be a destination as a result of hard work or be standing there like Oliver twist asking please sir may I have some more?" Can't it be both, like the hawks when they got Roughhead (pick 2) & Ellis (Pick 3) as priority picks while still doing a lot of work to rebuild themselves?

How many 1st round picks are duds or just average - 50%.___Shiel's career is half over at 25yr 6mth so is he worth a top 5 - probably no but its on the borderline - team dependent, I would say pick 4-7 is his true value. Any dollar over a million is way too much to pay a really good mid but not great midfielder.

Absolutely it is a quick fix, factor in how woeful Carlton where this year, trying to get Shiel us trying to improve quickly when the performance of Carlton this season where below poor and shows they are a bottom team for sometime and chasing players with a cheque book when so far behind the pace is looking for the fast solution.

Firstly Macca the reason I tread the past is simple, it shows how low of a base the blues are coming off and also shows the magnitude of the job in changing a long held perception, a good 3 years as you say does not level the damage done over many years. Carlton and north will pay overs for players to create the image that hey we are a location worth coming to, it's not unfair it's the price that sometimes needs to be paid. The reason Brisbane are viewed is simply the losing margin AVG shows they are not far of it, do you truly believe Carlton's AVG losing margin reflects similar? So say Shiel chooses the Hawks for less money but the flipside is playing under Clarkson, a hell of alot more attractive than Bolton wouldn't you say? And the idea that the AFL should intervene to provide more advantages than the draft order and the favourable fixture is ridiculous. I'm not saying the blues aren't heading in the right direction I'm saying more work on and off the field needs to be done before inevitably they start climbing and then suddenly start attracting high profile players. Do you want to be a destination as a result of hard work or be standing there like Oliver twist asking please sir may I have some more?

Also interesting waiting u til the fourth year of a rebuild to go after player like Shiel and .McGovern is considered a quick fix!!

Walls is there to be the media face I reckon, much like Balme at Richmond, an older Bull who can provide a cover to protect the footy department so sos and Bolton aren't facing situations like the SOS on footy confidential situation, send in an old whily operator like walls to pull the middle finger as such. And get Judd of confidential aswell, he faces to much scrutiny on it regarding the blues and mostly is like a deer in headlights and also gives a weekly opportunity for questions about the blues direction that of leads to articles on what he said.

Mattician - once again you prove my point, North are having to over pay, Carlton are having to pay but .Hawthorn pay unders - the system needs to be levelled. And there is no evidence the blues are disjointed off field, quite the opposite. As for the blues showing direction like Brisbane, they are doing essentially the same thing. I am amazed how much credit the Lions get for a 5 win season. As for the blues doing a lot wrong since the salary cap issue how about you stop going back into history and look at what the have done under the current rebuild 7 first round picks at the draft in 3 years plus the likes of Fisher (second round) and Williamson (a pic in the sixties plus fading in numerous other first round picks and now looking at getting Walsh, McGovern and possibly Shiel, what exactly have they done wrong there?

No it isn't the opposite, plenty of examples thru out that does show clubs that are disjointed off field are extremely likely to be poor on it as well. I'm not saying a person like cook would be at the club full-time but more that once a month they get together and discuss best way fwd on club issues, that is hardly a vote of no confidence but a resource that would be very beneficial for a club coming from the lowest base. McGovern and fasolo aren't Dylan Shiel and it sounds that the blues are going to pay overs alot like north with polec. Carlton need to show direction like Brisbane hence why Lachie Neale looks likely to go there, what improvement did the whole organisation show beyond profit that should be expected from a well supported team and some good contract extension? Carlton have wasted so many opportunities since the salary cap breach which sees them now as the most insignificant Victorian club so until they show stability for a few years any high profile assistance will be wasted as they seem desperate to get anything that's above average for a quick fix again.

I don't really get the role Walls is playing to be honest, it is voluntary, quite vague and seems unnecessary. And I would think it was an insult to appoint Cook to shadow the CEO, you either back your CEO or you appoint Cook as CEO. It is interesting you mention Richmond and Coup, there was an attempted coup there just before the 2017 season. And strange you think the blues can't attract players when at the very least McGovern is coming, by all reports so is Fasolo (although I am not that excited about it) and it is still 50/50 on Shiel. But again the point you make is the opposite of your argument, "the losses and performance the blues put up this year" is exactly why it isn't off field the blues need help but on it.

So seeing as a mentor for the CEO who with extensive experience in footy administration would equate to a vote of no confidence then you accept that the role walls is about to undertake is the same vote of no confidence. A consultant or mentor increases stability as then the CEO has an experienced confidant to advise, it would not be a position that makes decisions for the CEO but offer him a person with experience to use as a sounding board, just say Brian Cook had retired from Geelong and he was offered by the AFL to Carlton as a consultant/mentor for the CEO you think a man who turned wce a Geelong into powerful clubs is not a great resource but a insult, that's ridiculous and does kind of reflect Carlton thinking. There doesn't need to be a coup for a perception to get out into the public domain, Carlton have plenty of media voices who are critical of the club and it's direction, not unlike Richmond was facing a few years back and just like Richmond there doesn't need to be a coup for the perception to be out there. This is about perception and it may shock but the perception of Carlton is that they are a rudderless rabble, again I say if that is right or wrong is not for me to say but perception at this point is Carlton thru there own choice are going nowhere anytime soon so you cannot expect players be attracted to transfer there because of money, because if you think the losses and performance the blues put up this year is something that Shiel would find enticing then bluntly that's ridiculous.

Mattician - when was the last time there was actually a board coup? As for a mentor for the CEO increasing stability- that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard, it is a vote of no confidence. As for the coaching staff - Bolton had his contract extended this year and only one position looks like changing from last year - how is that unstable?

The CEO would do well if he had a mentor or shall we say a AFL decreed consultant with years of footy administration experience to offer guidance on how to create an environment where success is sustained at a high level and advise simple things like don't come out and say you don't want a priority pick. It would also help if supposed Carlton figures didn't every other year be reported to be planning a coup of the board. The coaching Dept is not secure no matter what you say so that's another area which is perceived as unstable. Money is not the be all when talking of stability Macca, in 07 wce imploded and though they are the wealthiest club they where the most unstable of the field, just an example of money doesn't reflect stability quite often. Carlton are in the early stages of becoming a stable entity but are far of the point where managers would advise their clients there is strong direction there, you're wanting to run when tentative steps in the right direction is all that's been taken.

Mattician - where exactly do you see this lack of stability? If you really were advising that stability is the key surely a 7 year contract paying more than $300k a year more than the Hawthorn offer is as stable as you can get.

Ok Mattician where exactly do you think the blues need help off field? Remember they have made a cash profit for the last 3 years, their membership increased over 10% this year after gains in both of the last couple, since 2015 they have replaced the coach (plus most of the assistants), list manager (andadded a couple of recruiters) head of the football department and CEO and had a president for not much longer than 2015. They have now installled Walls to help out with the football department.

If anywhere Carlton and GCS need assistance I believe it's off field. The more successful clubs have one common trait, excellent management in place off field creating a stable environment, that is the necessity for lower teams not further draft picks etc as even the most talented players will flounder in a unstable, poorly managed club.

Yes I would advise that as stability is the key and hawthorn are a stable club with excellent management. Getting McGovern could be the first move in what could lead to other dominoes falling over the coming years, fact he's choosing Carlton and players like Cripps and Curnow have extended are the first steps in changing that perception which has been built over nearly 2 decades so won't turn on the thrippity bit. It is Carlton job to create an environment that is attractive and no AFL intervention is in any way going to speed that process up. Carlton will get there but it will come from hardwork, not from a big spend player from another team.

Mattician - They are stable enough to attract McGovern, plus get sought after players in each of the last 3 years. But again your "percption" is exactly the reason these clubs need extra help. The blues have done really great things off the field since 2015, they have nailed the last 3 draft and trade periods under Silvagni and have put together a quality young list you suggest will be playing final in the near future - yet due to a "perception" you would advise a 25 year old talent to take less money on a shorter contract at a club you suggest is in decline.

Further on the "Cycle" at the top end: in 2014 it was Sydney, Hawthorn, Geelong top 3 with the Tigers 8th In 2015 it was Hawthorn, Sydney and Richmond 3 to 5 in 2016 it was Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn top 3 In 2017 it was Geelong and Richmond 2 nd 3 with Sydney 6th While in 2018 it was Richmond, 1st, Hawthorn 4th, Sydney 6th and Geelong 8th