Tim Paine finally breaks 13-year drought with his second FC century

I knew many would jump on one performance yesterday. I did state we need to see how carey goes in australia as now in different conditions and review all of them as its now a different set of surfaces/conditions . It was indeed a poor shot yesterday but he demonstrated his technique all summer in england , we must go on his overall record in the last year but I did want to see labs, carey and hazel wood play in Australia again in shield to see how the change to kookaburra and drop ins impacts their game. Labs is passing that test lets see how he goes today. Brisbane gabba seems to be tricky ground to play on though now . I note carey also made 15 more runs than Head I notice. Head is a bit of a worry at the moment . Runs have been hard to come by at the gabba . Carey has hardly failed with the bat since june and his first class average is higher than paines but I think its really a batting comparison with 5 and 6 for this summer with carey and right now pucowski and wade probably shading him as we have to strike out st kilda innings a bit . He has shaded Head with batting in both matches though there. We must look forward though particularly after this summer to what is best for the team leading in to India and touring abroad. Lets not forget core the discussion centres around Paine’s captaincy and his incompetency in that role. Paine has his favored army of loyal supporters largely because he’s a good bloke and has a talented history during his injuries but the core argument on his captaincy has been layed out in detail and the results with key performers around him in wins carrying him in uk, speak for themselves as do the matches we should have won but for some of his crucial decisions/or lack thereof and lack of runs. It may well be the case we find another keeper in the next year on that front who is not carey , there was the argument to play wade as keeper batsman abroad, who is clearly not as good a keeper but could open up another place for a batting talent as well as his ability to score more runs than paine who was terrible abroad . This of course would be under the situation where smith or cummins captains . the keeping argument is not limited to carey as paine ages . The better analysis at present for carey is to compare him to guys in the shield arena like puckowski who may be leading the 5/6 recall race after yesterdays innings at the WACA. To give a younger guy in this series off the back of good shield form and recent foreign form is a very valuable experience before India comes next summer and SA tour. we can only really trust WACA AND GABBA form right now due to the fiascos with SCG and MCG not being ready for me. I think paine can certainly give up captaincy in january and if he’s selected for keeping batting on merit so be it. I think the only argument for me , is whether to play him as keeper after the end of summer primarily so we an get cohesion with new captain before touring abroad in 2021. For some reason I redrafted one of my notes last night , turns out both posted as drafted one off the top of my head for some system reason unknown. So apologies for repetition in two of those notes

White ball runs DO NOT equate to red ball runs/form, surely you should know that. He made a hundred on the flattest FC wicket ever seen, meant virtually nothing, and his age of 28 goes against him, there's a few up and coming keeper-batsman coming up in the Shield. Josh Inglis, Sam Harper/Seb Gotch, Sam Whiteman was touted as a very good keeper before the finger issues, and has a very good FC batting record. Recently transitioned to opening so if he cuts it there, he can cut it anywhere. Honestly your Carey worshipping is becoming farcical at this point, because you never back it up with anything except hyperbole and hypotheticals like "Carey would have averaged 40 in the Ashes", literally basing his possible and extremely unlikely red ball achievement on white ball form, on flat tracks with a ball that doesnt swing.

I guess we will disagree on Paine forever, so perhaps time to call it quits. As for Carey I will quote you the following from others on this blog, re dismissal today. "Completely brain dead batting by Carey, and people want him in the test team". "That was truly appalling batting. That's the kind of shot/timing that should put a big black mark next to his name for a while". and finally "Yep people who are saying Tim Paine is under pressure have serious rocks in their head. Alex Carey is/has a long way to go as both a keeper and batsman. Its ok for slogger cricket but he's not anywhere ready for test cricket". Just some of the comments.

Hartley was lightyears ahead of Haddin with the gloves and probably superior to Gilchrist also.

General just stating his overall record is very poor as captain and he is the first Australian captain to lose a series to India in Australia which is not something to promote as we have not lost to them in Australia period and over several decades. As a side note . His 5 nil loss to England as captain in one dayers lead to Finch being appointed. He comes in and takes Australia to India (without warner I might add and in warners strongest format (ODI). He wins away from home in India. So looks like Finch could do the job away in India whilst Paine couldn’t do the job at home as captain with the red ball. Just noted as it makes Paine look even more ordinary losing at home when a new ODI captain takes a team without Warner to India (and Pakistan 5 nil win) and wins on the subcontinent. I cant see much validity in a lot of your comments to suggest Paine is anything else but a mediocre to poor captain . I understand he was needed and accept Warner created an unforeseeable situation for him to step in to so I’m not criticizing his appointment but in England there were times where if it weren’t for CA politics and we strengthened the batting middle order (carey in third to fifth test , head in fifth test in particular ) and had Smith/cummins captain then we take home a winning series and I feel pretty certain of that actually. Now I’m just concerned about away series going forward and not having key experience for new captain/keeper /team formation in 2021 away matches and especially 2022 away which is why I get nervous about Paine captaining and keeping with the home ground advantage this summer and next which will cover the cracks in his deficiencies abroad in particular. I will admit he remains the better keeper on form than wade and carey but carey is 28 as he’s a late starter to the game and I’m sure there are other promising keepers who can also score runs. Lets see what these shield games bring over the summer anyway with keeepers/5 to 7 slot batsman.

But none the less he is the first captain to drop a series to India. Its not over the top . I will concede idiot Warner played a hand in weaking our side . I don't think quoting India helps your case in away tours its always a struggle there. Paine had the advantage of a test series at HOME which is easier no matter what way you spin it . Look at how Finch has also improved the one day side since Paine captained us in a five nil thumping in England. Finch won the one day series in India (without warner) away from home. Moreover He captains them to five nil win. This is all after Paine loses five nil to england. I mean cmon. How many facts are enough of this point. To be factual and objective on the wicket keeper front (a different discussion) there is a good argument to say he is still the best keeper but he did drop a few catches in the ashes and gettable ones (commentary confirmed/agreed ). They can be forgiven as he still kept well enough but by how better than others he keeps is getting debatable (especially with negative batting contributions save for one lucky innings in england its not assisting middle order stability and match winning runs ) . As time goes on his position is ambiguous as we gear up for a slightly weaker summer completion with home advantage where two wins should occur. This summer its all a bit of a moot argument but I can't sit around listening to people blow his trumpet for bringing home the ashes for a start we drew it and I think he has a large degree of responsibilty for not winning the series with poor captaincy and batting. Especially with headingly just so close. I don't think he managed that test well at all , same with Lords and same the fifth test sending us in to bowl. Paine is set to captain and keep all summer no matter what we say and expect him to do well enough in australia this summer and by default probably next summer potentially with no cricket in between. I am looking ahead and concerned about away tours and him being selected on those tours at 36 plus years of age though. With smith , hazel wood and cummins and home advantage and better form from others in Australia I suspect they will cover up the cracks in his captaincy well enough potentially leaving us exposed again when we tour if he's selected. He would be wise to abdicate the thrown later next year or give others a chance . he may well do or CA may spin the changes with their political marketing going forward . Once again I acknowledge he's come out of the abyss to help australia in impossible predicament largely thanks to Warners idiocy

General interesting mate but still not buying your reasoning. We have NEVER lost to India in Australia even if they are a top seed its still a record breaking loss as its never happened in decades at all ! Captain Tim Paine. Beating Sri Lanka an average test team at best with some of their key star players now retired an rebuilding You mention warner and smith as not being present in previous tests . Lets discuss that . Warner did nothing in England (broke the worst opening record in 100 years in a series) so didn’t add any value to your argument of him not being in teams when we lost on that basis. Smith comes back in sure, but theres logic to say he captains better (per his record) and is the sole reason we won the two tests we did. In fact we lost without Smith in the third test and he was mentally taxed in the last one clearly. So argument to say without Smith (200 plus and centuries in the wins) Paine would have come back to Australia with a walloping and another lost series. Hence Paine’s captaincy only seemed to subtract from our performance in england for all the reasons I’ve stated previous. Copious blunders and poor decisions. He’s LUCKY Smith was there as he wouldn’t have captained his way out of a paper bag without him and the two key bowlers who didn’t need Paine’s help or guidance one bit, in fact with poor DRS calls he only hurt the bowlers, key to the loss at headingly for sure , and at Lords didn’t bowl the key quicks enough on the fifth day nearly losing the match but for Labs saving the second innings and hanging in there and in last test backed them up with the decision to bowl first which you never do at the oval let alone off the back of a grueling effort at manchester bowling epic spells with only a few days break. You are also wrong on the records with Paine as captain. Paine won 5 (two thanks to smiths huge knocks and the two pace bowlers being epic) but Paine Lost 6, Drawn 3. Win percentage 35% Smith Won 18, Lost 10, Drawn 6 Win 50% Paine has the worst win rate since the 80s when australia had a poor team. BTW kim hughes lowest win rate as captain in Australian history 14% (good guy to listen to clearly if you want to pick winners) . As a side note. Steve Waugh win rate 72 percent. He picked Carey as well to play in england. Think Steve knows how to win a series and especially on english pitches and technique more than Kim Hughes to say the least . I rest my case. Paine is a mediocre captain carried by three or four outstanding players . I rest my case. Stats below to confirm your inaccuracy or error mate. Just sticking to the facts of course. http://www.stats.espncricinfo.com/australia/engine/records/individual/list_captains.html?class=1;id=2;type=team

Demonstrable? (He employed “everybody spreadout” fields.) Clearly? (A last wicket stand with an all-rounder and a bunny). He was hands-off with bowlers rarely interacting with them intra-spell. His field placements were generally meandering with very little effort in focussing the field. Long periods of bowlers having little effect followed by helter-skelter changes that prevented wickets from being taken. —- You cannot be considered a great captain if you do not do what l identified (above in my previous post). Not because l suggested it but because it is an essential building block facilitating a culture of winning matches. A captain can have no greater practical effect on a team than with the organization of the fielding and bowling. —– I have acknowledged what he has done well but these are lower down the totem pole. —- Former players mincing words about how well he did are keeping a weather-eye on their paymasters. The English commentators are damming him with faint praise. And Langer, extolling Paine, reminds me of Sheedy talking up Folau on his tragic AFL sojourn. —– I love being a polemiscist. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

You're terrific at making sweeping statements but I see zero evidence to support your claims that "Paine has demonstrably, clearly failed". This hopeless leader in the field managed to take a Test off the world's best team, 2 Tests off Sri Lanka and another two off the Poms in England. How did he manage that - by fluke? Sorry Rowdy, but I think you're completely wrong in your assessment of what a leader should do and my evidence is the support he's getting, not only from his team mates, but from the selectors. There's no way they'd continue to pick him if was as bad as you say. More to the point, he would not have achieved the results he has to date

"How was his captaincy poor?" Paul, he is clueless to setting a field and managing an attack. Commentators are there to make their broadcast look good. They are not there to tell you the truth. Bagging the actors, I mean players, doesn't help revenues. We clearly lost many fielding sessions, ceding the advantage, by his compromised captaincy. ---- My criteria for captaincy, good captaincy, is these parameters; PRIMARY 1) Marshalling an attack 2) Setting a field 3) Marshalling an attack 4) Setting a field (These things Paine has demonstrably, clearly failed) SECONDARY 5) Leader of men (men's team) [if we were talking women I'd use the term "women" to identify l was talking about women] 6) Player confidante 7) Sounding good to the press 8) Making runs (These things Paine has done well, some very well, some not so well but at least adequate)

Also, your comment that Paine is the first captain to lose a series in Australia in the Border-Gavaskar trophy is a bit over the top. In the six series in Australia we have won 4, drawn 1 and lost 1. Home team mostly has the advantage. We have played 8 series in India since that trophy was introduced in 1996/7. Do you know how many we have won. Once in 2004. Dravid was captain, so he is the only captain to have lost a series in India. Do you class him as a failure because he lost that series. As I said home teams usually have the advantage.

Pierro, No surprise that I am going to defend Tim's captaincy record big time. We have been in a huge transition period in the last twelve months or so. So lets go through his series results. Yes lost to Pakistan in the UAE. First series without Smith and Warner and Bancroft. Our team in batting order Finch,SMarsh, Head,MMarsh,Labs,Paine,Stark,Siddle,Holland,Lyon,Khawaja(inj). Only 4 of those players played in the last test re England, 12 months later, and one of them lucky to be there. We next played India, yes we lost the series 2-1, against the No 1 side in the world, when we were ranked about 5th. And we were without SMITH & WARNER. Conjecture yes but on form especially in Oz, how much of a difference would those two have made. We then beat Sri Lanka and drew 2-2 in England, the first time we have retained the ashes there since 2001. As i said the team has changed dramatically over the last twelve months. Yes you can call Hughes useless, but he is entitled to his comments. Most reviews of Paine's captaincy have said he has done a terrific job in difficult circumstances. Record 5 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses. Losing to India in Australia (just) was a great effort against clearly the No 1 side in the world. We are currently ranked 4th.

General Lets also look at paines record as captain another small excercise below to review. Paine : First captain to lose a series to india in australia in cricket history as captain Lost to pakistan in UAE. Beat an average sri lankan side. Drew a series in england which his two bats and bowlers won and he aided in nearly losing series at Lords and most definitely at Headinly. He’s an interim captain at best on that record and now gets softer homes series this summer. He also lost 5 nil ODI as captain to England before Finch replaced him as captain immediately and improved that side no end. These are facts Im not making it up to have a go at Paine but results are results and he’s been consistently mediocre to poor as captain.

Lets look at paine as captain. First captain to lose a series to india in australia, Lost to pakistan in UAE. Beat an average sri lankan side. Drew a series in england which his two bats and bowlers achieved for the most part irrespective of his captaincy and he aided in nearly losing series at Lords and most definitely at Headinly. Not making up Paul. He’s an interim captain at best on that record and now gets softer homes series this summer. He also lost 5 nil ODI as captain to England before Finch replaced him as captain immediately and improved that side no end. These are facts Im not making it up to have a go at Paine but results are results and he’s been consistently mediocre to poor as captain.

So we just listen to bias Australian journalists and not english journalists. Incorrect on Paine needing to be perfect but it was blunder after blunder in england. Lords last day bowling decisions nearly lost us the test . Slow bowling changes in multiple tests and players out of position for catches. Putting us in to bowl last test and the hideous DRS decision that left us short of a plum DRS next over . Match lost which would have been won. Series Drawn . As captain you don’t go the slog when your team is decimated in batting first innings of first test too he was reckless as a leader there by example but guess who got us out of that test Steve Smith practically on his own alongside siddle , a bowler who comes in and makes more runs than Paine . There were many blunders all series and bad ones. Id settle for some good decision making and leadership on field. Im not making this up to spite Paine. He was poor in england as captain. Smith Cummins labs and Hazelwood produced startling peformances which were elite level for any series and that covered up Paines average series.

I think thats blatantly wrong dismissing cummins as a potential leader. He's got great temperant and is the finest bowler in australia right now and knows his field placing. Smith was a better captain for me on the field, paine was looking to him in england. Some captains lead by example and field placements but lets face it Warner was an idiot and very hard to manage . Warners behavior has been out of control at times. I don't blame Smith for that . The selectors could also have binned him for his ongoing poor behaviour but didn't. Fact remains Paine made 12 incorrect DRS decisions in england. One costing Australia a test match. His field placements poor , bowing changes poor in general. Plenty of commentators supported that. His keeping was ok . Dropped a few . His batting generally poor. Smith , labs, hazel wood and Cummins with ridiculous averages got us the draw in england and deserved an outright win but for poor openers and paines mediocre captaincy in england. Its pretty factual. Of course australias PC commentators generally won't mock the captain much where a series is drawn but in my opinion your giving paine way to much credit. Its hard to find achievements by Paine in the english series factually.

General im not sure citing kim hughes is a great idea ( I had read his article) look at what he did as captain and how that ended , literally in tears. He was a weak leader and broke down in the role. One of our poorest captains. I rate paine above him for what thats worth. I agree its interesting to express views and opinions although some quotes on here about paines batting averages were just wrong and we all saw his mistakes repeated in captaincy in england . many choose to ignore them or highlight that four great players decided the ashes for australia . They were just facts . Expressions on opinion or viewpoints are one thing but changing facts are another. Some have done that on this thread (not you, your comments are always interesting and worth contemplating and at times have made me change my views) . correcting incorrect facts of course is not opinion (someone was quoting above that Paines Batting was higher in the ashes than wades). In quoting captains ill follow Steve Waugh any day who selected him for ashes. Ill even rate warne tactically in front of kim hughes who also selected carey for the ashes. Waugh and Warne make the all Australian XVs . Im in their camp and very happy to agree with their lead on the carey issues. We missed a huge opportunity with carey in england (namely to let him bat ) . Back in australia I’ve not made my mind up on selection in any event , id like to see the next two shield rounds actually. Early days for positions 1, 2, 5 and 6 no matter what preconceptions or bias the selectors have

lets see how careys next two shield games go with bat but we also need to groom a keeper to come in to the side and preferably give him some experience at test level in australia before departing for foreign tours in 2021 and 2022. Australias test scheduling doesn't help its sparse but paine will be aging another 10 months in that period and I've seen enough on his captaincy to see its mediocre over 5 tests. Carey going to struggle to get in to the side this summer at home with a lot of competition for slots 5 and 6 but we should take note of all the shield form as no one came out of that ashes with a higher average than 35 in that series which historically is poor ( let alone after wade the averages dropped right down with bowlers performing better with the bat in england)

Ben thats not true if you show form thats relevant and consistent with bat like Carey has now since May with hardly one poor innings its relevant to selection . on your basis, averages of 40 plus going in to England, many players performed poorly everywhere for Australia . Technique and local form matters big time. Going on stats, particularly abroad can be dangerous. If 40 plus stats were the relevant why did warner , bancroft, harris, head , khwaja , paine all go amiss with their batting. Carey would have done better than all of them he just didn’t put a foot wrong and squared up to he world class bowling all summer on english pitches , you don’t get better lead up form for the ashes really on top of his red ball 50s there when others were clearly failing . It was a one off summer lead up in england pushing the ashes out to start later. We did not win the series and should have comfortably. Carey averages 33 with bat , and growing, is greater than paines (29) in first class cricket and he came to the game late another factor to take in to account he’s 28 . His average since May is through the roof as well. Its relevant but Im not doubting paine has more experience with the gloves . On captaincy though I feel my comments are valid. He was mediocre in that department all summer. Its easy to cling on to stats without looking behind them or at technique or local form. I think Carey should only be spoken about as a batsman until end of summer as we all know paine is set to captain until the end of summer and the australian pitches will cover up any deficiencies with a lot of players before playing abroad where carey and labs proved their metal in the summer.

Paul just responded to your grossly inaccurate claims on his batting to start and my first claim was that his captaining was poor in england and it really was . Having a go at him outside of that is not why I'm positing . Wasn't having a huge go at his wicketkeeping which you keep coming back to although the other point I've made is we need to get his successor ready on that front quite soon too he's 35 in a month and 36 when we go on the next proper away tour . These are all facts . Your incorrect on him as captain. Warner cheated and thrown our national side and captain in to an awful position at the time Paine was appointed because of this defining factor to an extent many considered it an interim appointment as paine was all but retired from test cricket but was one with experience . Your wrong on carey , I follow Steve Waugh one of our great captains there who also selected him pre ashes. He actually got two 50s in county in england straight after averaging 60 in WC lead up (which was on same grounds - a gift in terms of lead up from really ) and 117 with red ball on return to shield all be it on a flat deck but more than Travis Head made. Many are losing sight of the fact four players in england performed brilliantly for australia and covered up the cracks in paines captaincy and batting in particular. Im concerned about transition in to a side that won't play much after this summer due to scheduling as Paine heads to 36 years of age in to a foreign tour as well.