Will the relegation/promotion system work in A-League?

Seems to me a pointless exercise....any team relegated from the A-league would lose all its players and revenue..and never be competitive again. Its already a problem in europe..here it would effectively kill off clubs completely. The gap is just too large. Picture the current situation with the Fury happening every year to 2 or three clubs. It would be a disaster.

Ha! You have no idea do you. You clearly aren't aware of the fact that the UK is the size of Victoria (area). How much do you think it costs to get from one side of England to the other? How about getting from one side of Australia to the other? And not just for teams - what about fans? You do realise the NSL already tried nationwide promotion/ relegation. It didn't work very well because all the clubs in the 2nd Tier went broke! Those who don't know history are condemned to repeat it.... yada yada yada

I have a few problems with the points being made in this blog 1. How can people say population is an issue when you have countries like these with extensive relegation/promotion systems in place: Scotland- Population 5.2mil Ireland- 6.2 The Netherlands- 6.6mil Portugal- 10.7 the list goes on and on... I admit none of these countries have football as their fourth or possibly fifth most popular sport (after AFL, NRL Rugby Union and Cricket) however isn't the aim of the A-League to increase the popularity of the sport Australia wide (and this means in more than eight or ten cities) 2. The point of relegation and promotion is that any club, through hard work, can become the national champions This will not work with a two tier franchise system. Any relegation system must work its way all the way down to grass roots clubs. I don't have a great deal of knowledge of how the state leagues work in all of the states, but in Perth any club can become a state premier division club. Their is no reason why, with initial financial backing from the FFA or a State Association these teams could continue to go into a national 2nd tier league or straight into the A-league. This could work by taking three steps: a) increase the size of the A-league to 16 teams (the existing 10, and add another 5 over two years after the Melbourne Heart are included) allowing for two or three teams to eventually be relegated from the league each year - Aim to complete this stage by the 2013-14 season b) create a B-league consisting of the top teams from each state (maybe make it 2 teams from each state and a team from each territory to start with, making a 14 team division) eventually NSW and Victoria will have more teams but begin as a level playing field. to avoid the crippling financial effect of interstate travel each week maybe have this tournament as a knockout carnival in one location over a few weeks to start with, or get financial backing from the FFA for flights etc. - Aim to have this competition running by season 2014-2015 c) Have two or three teams relegated from the A-league at the end of the 2014-15 season with two or three B-league teams playing in the A-league for the 2015-16 season This would see a relegation/promotion system equivalent to any European nation in place within 5 years, without having to recreate the footballing structure throughout the country 3. How can the lack of talent be a reason NOT to create a nationwide relegation/promotion strategy A full relegation/promotion system will help to create talent. People think that more clubs will thin out the talent in Australia and if you just chuck 6 more teams into the A-league this will be the case. take the career path of Irish star Robbie Keane: Grows up in Ireland, noticed by Wolverhampton and offered a contract, through good performances at Wolves, Premier league side Coventry bought him for 6 mil (note that this would aid Wolves development financially). The rest of his career is irrelevant to my point but Keane showcases the common pathway from youth player to Lower league player to premier league player. With a franchise system he might have still be signed by Coventry but Wolves would have got nothing for seeing him in the first place and would not have profited from the 6mil that helped them be promoted to the premier league four seasons later

Not new teams, take the best two or three teams from every state league and put them in a champions league the same as they do in europe. just look at the population of scottland its about six million the same as victoria and scotland has celtic and rangers two world class teams! victoria could have two teams that are just as good, world class!

Maybe in 50 years time when our population reaches 50 million & AFL & NRL cease to exsist. Where are the cities (and financial support) to support these new teams?? Perth are doing it tough now and I think we will see more of this in the next few years (as the AFL & NRL will find)

you have all jumped the gun, the reason why the a-league is a franchise system rather than a promotion/religition one, is becouse of the size of australia. in euroupe every country has a promotion/religation system with the top teams in the champions league. australia is the same size as europe. every australian state has established league divitions the same as every country in europe, now imagine if they stoped the champions league and brought in a franchis league with new teams from every country? it would be a disaster so why do it over here?

Pip Well said

jub jub If you wake up this morning, and see what's around you, it's easy to conclude that it's impossible. On the other hand, most people on this thread aren't saying next year, or even in 5 years, but maybe in 10 years. Also, how can you predict what television rights (or other media) might be like in a decade or two? No one can. We do know this, pay TV is constantly looking for more product - so I wouldn't say that a 2nd divvy will be forever imossible (but it will be challenging for sure).

Anyone who thinks a div 2 is a good idea is an idiot. I use harsh words because the idea is just soo soo stupid to me. All a tier 2 would do is kill the league. We don't have the depth, finance, investment, population or cities to support a league 2. At least not for another 100 years. IF you do a pros/cons graph to see if this idea is viable the graph is CHOKKERS full of CONS.

Yes to the 100 year plan for Football in Australia! One fact to remember is that one of the greatest assets of Football in this country is its particpation rate. the 1000's that play locally each week for the love of the game. For P&R to get working and be supported it needs to start at the bottom up. Australia, accross all sporting in codes is locked into the mindset of National - State - Local levels, and NEVER shall they meet. Administrators Officials etc tend to want to keep the status Quo and thus we can generally mayhave P&R but only within those levels. To get the ball rolling, this needs to start between local and state level, where there is less money at stake. The major state associations should be aiming for mini football pryamids of 1 top league, 2 regional leagues that promote to the top league, and then four regional leagues in the third teir. 2nd teir national league can be built up slowly year by year and more teams and weeks each year. eg first year could be a one off game in Canberra of NSWPL Champs vs VPL Champs. Over time it could expand to 20 teams in 2 national conferences. Bottom three of each conference relegate back to state league Franchise teams could be added at any stage of expansion. The point really is that P&R cant happen here quickly, we just the plan to get there and make small steps each year towards the goal

I wrote this earlier today. "I sound like an old record but CCM are the blueprint for clubs starting from scratch in Australia." More evidence:- http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24810479-5000940,00.html

I reckon It will give the A-League more emotion and excitement. We need an Australian Football Divison 2 if theres any way it can work. I reckon it will give the A-League a new dimention to it. But we probably won't be able to do it by AFC's ending time to their plan.

Kazama I think theirs a bit of a time lapse going on here between what it means to be in the AFC & Australia. Even from a football angle let alone the rest. People still havent grasped that were in it & we aint going back. But they will.

Towser To me it is quite puzzling why we don't interact more with the Japanese when quite clearly they've already achieved everything we intend to in the next few years: * They have a well supported and funded league, with a viable two-tier system, youth academies, good imports, corporate sponsorship, good quality of play * Football, depending on opinion, is either the #1 or #2 sport in Japan. Either way it has a good profile with the general public and not just the hardcore fans like us * They have (co)hosted the World Cup, Confederations Cup and the Club World Cup We used to have J. League teams holding training camps in Adelaide. Why can't that happen again? With Adelaide's success in the ACL, surely there are now pathways to a dialogue that would allow for this to happen. I'd love to have Gamba or Kashima come over here for two weeks and train as well as hold coaching clinics for kids, meet with the FFA, FFSA and club officials and discuss business plans, and of course play Adelaide United in a friendly match. In the A-League offseason, perhaps our clubs that aren't participating in the ACL could head to Japan and do something similar. And that's just one small idea.

Kazama We need to do a lot more lateral thinking in Football in Australia now. Too many people get bogged down with the Australian sporting scene & fail to see what were really part of. We have to learn to use the Asian Football exposure to our advantage. That means doing things like you suggest with the FFA & presidents of J-League/A-League & maximising our Asian exposure through the ACL like the J-League has done with TV rights to other parts of Asia.

Towser - that's pretty much it. A 100 year plan is something we need to look at if we're realistic about bringing football up to a respectable level in Australia. We quite obviously need a long term solution. Some good work has been done in the last five or so years but we've got plenty of risks of the bottom falling out at any given moment and having to start all over again, but after having turned away a crucial number of fans. This might be our only shot at getting the standard to the even Japanese level, so we must proceed cautiously and not spend time and resources on things that will only increase the frailty of our system and structure, like I feel a second division would do in the short term. Back to the Zaibatsu I can't say I know for sure but I remember hearing it somewhere, maybe an old business studies class in my high school days (which weren't that long ago). Maybe an idea would be for the FFA to get the presidents of J. League clubs to hold a seminar for the presidents and owners of A-League clubs, and even potential owners, to discuss what is needed for a professional club to integrate itself in the community.

Kazama Pippinu Heres a bit I took from the J-League link. First point is that the fact that J-League clubs are taking the ACL seriously now has raised its profile throughout Asia. This in turn will raise the profile of the A-League in Asia as we participate in the ACL. More teams in the A-League with P/R means more ACL spots. Secondly the bit about selling TV rights to foreign countries especially in Asia could be a source of revenue for the A-League long term as it develops. Their are possibilities for making money now were in Asia. "However in the recent years, with inclusion of A-League in Eastern Asia, introduction of FIFA Club World Cup, and increment in marketability in the Asian continent, both the league and the clubs increased the attention of the Asian competition. Believe it or not, Kawasaki Frontale is one of the supported J. League club in Honk Kong, due to their participation of the Asian Champion League in the 2007 season. The continuous effort led to the success of Urawa Red Diamonds in 2007. Even in the 2008 season, Japanese clubs continues to dominate in the competition. With the excellence in league management and competitiveness, the J. League received a total of 4 slots starting 2009 season. The league took this as an opportunity to sell TV broadcasting rights to foreign countries, especially in Asia. To acquire more Asian interest, the J. League also plans to add a 4th foreign player slot for each team, although these will be allocated to just players from the AFC countries."

Kazama So essentially what we are saying is that before a second division is created in this country given the differences with Europe,the money has to already have been found(from whatever source) to finance it & support a drop in attendances if a club is relegated. This is what is happening in Japan where they consider the second division as part of their 100 year plan to develop football. Regarding the bit about fan loyalty,thats why I said before that new clubs in a second division have to be the equal of already existing First division clubs for it to work. By that I mean population base,financial support. In other words the potential has to be there to maintain the standard of an existing first division A-League club. The potential of a club is only as good as its ability to be creative & understand what it takes to be a professional football club. I sound like an old record but CCM are the blueprint for clubs starting from scratch in Australia. On the Zaibatsu It appears that way reading the link below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._League

Pippinu Yes, a good start, but just a start. I'd think the FFA, if faced with those two options, will go with #1. Look, I think there's more to having a second tier than just getting more ACL spots and keeping Binny happy, but it just seems like pie in the sky stuff and when you consider there's so much that needs fixing in football in this country. I think it wouldn't be the priority for the FFA to pursue, and the lack of depth in talent translating into a much lower standard compared to the A-League would be a big turn off as well. Also there seems to be no big push from within for a second tier, like there was for the youth league and the women's league.

Kaz but TV money is certainly a pretty good start. Let's say the TV rights double after the end of this TV deal (which is a possibility). The FFA can go one of two ways: 1. increase the average salary in the A-League to some sort of median in global terms (by upping the salary cap and giving the existing clubs a proportionate share of the proceeds); or 2. funnelling some of the increae to a 2nd divvy, with perhaps a cap aroud 50% of whatever it is in the 1st divvy. It can't be lower than that because we can't have the two divisions being miles apart in resources in playing talent (I reckon). Many will want the first (improve standard, etc), but many will see merit in the 2nd (prospects of increased representation in the ACL). I don't think we can have both.