The Lions are an irrelevance, except for the dollars generated

99 pounds for the jersey?!?!?! Does it come with a free ticket? Or a built in heater? I though paying AU$150 for a jersey was bad.

Hmmm. Ok.

Pothale - here is Australia - shouldn't have assumed that default position would have necessarily been obvious. My comments should be read not as a criticism of approach or attitude of the "home unions" but as relating to the premise raised in the post we're talking about, which related to the relevance and competitiveness of Lions tours. The writer of that also doesn't like composite teams. My point essentially was that the national teams which he prefers (even though Ireland is itself an amalgam) have generally been less than competitive themselves when touring here, NZ and SA, and consequently his criticism of Lions tours on those grounds did not seem particularly soundly based. The reasons for that uncompetitiveness are various - sometimes because players are rested, allowed to sit out for operations or to recover from injuries that didn't always prevent them playing in club games, and always because the timing of the tours means the players who do tour are burnt out (my "afterthought" comment comes from thinking that if you set out on a tour handicapping yourself that way, you're not really trying your best to win - you're treating it as something to be got out of the way as best you can). Of course, the same barriers to success apply to the SH teams touring north - that perhaps doesn't get talked about as much because the SH teams have been better at overcoming them.

Not disputing that point at all, John B. I wasn't arguing that the record against SH teams is anything other than poor to abysmal in recent memory. But the reality is that the top 3 IRB ranked teams in the world are currently in the SH - so what do you expect or want? I'll only speak for Ireland on the following points: I'm not sure where you mean by 'here' in your post, but the the last Ireland tour - in 2008 to Aus and NZ - was not 'pretty full strength' - it was full strength. Ireland more than most wants to get an away victory against the SH teams - it's a stated objective, particularly since the last number of matches were very close. There were 5 or 6 points only, if I recall correctly, in the matches against NZ and Aus last year. I don't think describing them as an afterthought is fair. The reality is that the Summer tours for the NH teams are at the end of a long season, where the players, - from a much smaller playing base in Ireland's case - have played more games than their SH counterparts. You can't change that, unless you change the timings of when they occur, or the competitions in which they participate. I sometimes wonder whether it would be better to have the games in August, but that probably wouldn't suit the SH teams, would it? In the recent tour by SH teams up North in November/December - Ireland played NZ and Argentina. They lost to NZ and beat Argentina. Of the two matches, the Argentina one was deemed more important. In hindsight, I wish that Ireland had played them first, secured their WC qualifying spot (to suit the stupid rules created by IRB), and then played the ABs - I think it would have been a much better match - except TV/money dictated who and when teams played each other. And I also reckon that if Ireland had played Australia in November, I'd have bet on Ireland beating them - largely because the Wallabies are not a bogey team for Ireland. (They played both SA and Aus in 2006 tour and beat both of them.) Unfortunately, NZ is still the one nut to crack - home or away.

The last Wales tour here was a long way from full strength. I can't recall the last Scotland tour here - but there'd have been a couple since the last time Scotland beat any of the Tri-Nations countries anywhere. The last Ireland tour here was pretty full strength I think to give them their due - again though, things like preparation and timing also contribute to competitiveness. If your tours are something of an afterthought at the end of a long season, you're not going to be at your peak. It seems to me that even if the teams aren't significantly weakened to start with, the tours are approached with that attitude and cease to be competitive as a result. Dispute that all you like, but the old suggestion "look at the scoreboard" continues to apply - when was the last successful tour south by one of the "home unions"? England 2003 - and before that?

Dan - spot on. My point was that three of the 6 Nations do. If England don't, in your view, then that's not representative of NH teams, is my only point. England's viewpoint/stance/behaviour regarding SH tours seems to be used a catch-all for NH rugby which given the current state of teams/performance, etc is somewhat misleading and/or disingenuous.

I think England do send out their best available team, but these tours are seen, rightly or wrongly, as a time for delayed operations and for some holiday, before the GP and HEC treadmill starts up a month or so later.

pothale, Yes Ireland, Wales and Scotland have been very good in that respect, but what of England? They never seem to be able to send a full strength side out.

A minor whinge - can we make some distinction between saying NH teams sending second-class teams to tour in NZ/Aus/SA? As far as I'm aware, Ireland, Wales & Scotland have not done this in recent years. In fact, I think France are the ones who really get up people's noses for not doing it allegedly because it clashes with Top 14. If countries such as Ireland do actually take them seriously and tour with top teams - excepting genuine injuries - then they shouldn't tar them with the same brush.

The Lions beat South Africa in the professional era when the Boks were World Champions and damn near beat the Wallabies in the professional era when the Wallabies were World Champions. The squad in 2005 wasn't a vintage side. It's happened in the past, it may happen this year. It's not just about coaching, in the 70s and again in the 90s there was a lot of talent in Northern Hemisphere rugby.

should the author not be banned for relegious blasphemy? 1974 lions were the bets rugby union team ever assembled by no means a rag tag team. serioudly though Spiro this article should never have been allowed to be published

Spiro, thanks for reminding me of the horrendous weather encountered at Jade Stadium for that first Lions Test. It was the coldest, most miserable weather I have ever experienced watching a game. It was so bad we got hailed on. The 6 packs of Speights kept up our spirits as did the magnificant Lions supporters. I really felt for the thousands of travelling supporters who paid big coin to watch there team get trounced. Hopefully they can put up a better showing in South Africa. Ian McGeechan will ensure the squad is harmonious and competetive.

^^ no better than Socceroos friendlies. "test match" used to have cache. But sending second string teams to be easily beaten by SH teams has hurt the status of these matches as the crowds and ARU dividends now demonstrate.

Also fair to say that nowadays Lions tours are much more seriously conducted and competitive than the vast bulk of tours from from the NH to Aust, NZ or SA. If the Lions tours are an irrelevance, what does that make the ones put on by the Lions' component countries?

Lions tours certainly look anachronistic but any team that has such a massive and loud away following for games on the other side of the planet deserves serious respect.

I was at the NZ - Lions match at Christchurch in 2005, and it was one of the greatest rugby occasions I've been at. The weather was atrocious, wild wind and rain, yet many of the Lions supporters turned up in shorts and the distinctive red Lions jersey. They were fantastic supporters, generous, friendly, rugby-loving, out to enjoy the country and the people. The same is true of the Lions tour in Australia in 2001. The Lions supporters are the best supporters that any team could want to have, and any country would want to entertain. It is true that because the players are drawn from the Home Nations, the Lions are generally not the most formidable side. You get the feeling that the players are delighted and chuffed to be Lions but their real loyalties lie with their country. For this reason the Lions will struggle I believe in South Africa. The Springboks, too, will be a formidable side in its own right if the first round of the Super 14 tournament is anything to go by. But the magic of the Lions is that players feel more secure about expressing themselves as players in the side, where they might be too cautious if they were playing for their own country. Sometimes this has be fatal for the Lions. Would Jonny Wilkinson have made that pop-up blindside pass which was intercepted by Joe Roff just after half-time (with the Lions in control of the match) which turned the crucial second Test in favour of the Wallabies. The Lions had brilliantly won the first Test. And Wilkinson's pass essentially lost the series for the Lions. Playing for England he would surely have booted the ball deep into Wallaby territory. But when the Lions come off, as they did in Australia and NZ in 1971 and in South Africa in 1974 they were just about the most thrilling side you could ever hope to watch. The magic of the Lions is that we are always looking for another of these magical tours. Just one other thought. I reckon that there are enough strong rugby nations in Europe for a European version of the Lions to be created. Perhaps if they toured every four years, but two years apart from the Lions, this could solve the problem of the second-class tours we have in Australia, NZ and South Africa before the Tri Nations Tests.

oh and one other thing, it means a hell of a lot to the players. On that 05 Christchurch trip, the Thursday night before the game, the old man and myself had a feed at a steakhouse. Sitting next to us was Jason Robinson and Charlie Hodgson. A few tables further down was Richie McCaw, Chris Jack and a couple of other AB's. We observed both groups while sipping a Canterbury Draught and not once did either party make any effort to acknowledge each others presence or even make eye contact. They had there game faces on two night's out from kickoff. Now if this same scenario was before a Bledisloe and George Smith was at a table three down from McCaw they would surely engage each other and have a brief chat. Not when it comes to a Lions Tour. These can be once in a lifetime opportunities to represent or play against the Lions. Tim Horan, Jason Little and David Wilson never got to play against the Lions. I am sure they were very tempted to stay on one more year for that challenge. It is the only thing they didn't acheive in there illustrious careers. The only reason Rod Macqueen continued coaching in 01 was because of the Lions series. He retired after that great series knowing he had acomplished his final goal. Lions Tours are special.

what a load of bollox. The Lions Tours are fantastic. Yes SCW made a complete hash of it in 05 as others have indicated. Apparently every player had his own room ???. Please on a rugby tour ?. I was in Christchurch for the first Test in 05 as a neutral observer and the lead up was awesome. I took my Father ( who is Irish ) over and he had a ball. They were completely dominated by a brilliant AB's team. Let's go back to previous tours, 2001 was one of my favourite all time Rugby series. What a nail biter. I remember walking into the Gabba before the 1st test and was blown away by the Sea of Red in the Stadium. 1997 Lions knock off World Champion Saffers in an upset 1993 Lions were a tad unlucky in NZ and of course 1989, who will forget that series. Lions Tours are special. I have great memories of the five Tests I have attended. 1989 - 1st & 3rd Tests, 2001 - 1st & 3rd Tests and 2005 - 1st Test. On your bike Paddy !

Here's a possible 12 match schedule for the Lions tour of Australia in 2013. There was criticism in 2001 of a few too many weak games. Although in truth, Australia's provinces & regions have improved out of sight in terms of strength, since the 1989 tour, for example. 1. W/E(Fr) - WA at Perth, Rectangular Stm. 2. M/W(Tu) - SA XV at Adelaide, Hindmarsh Stm. 3. W/E(Sa) - NSW at Sydney, SFS. 4. M/W(Tu) - NSW Country at say Coffs Harbour. 5. W/E(Sa)- ACT at Canberra, Bruce Stm. 6. M/W(Tu) - Victoria XV at Melbourne, Rectangular Stm. 7. W/E(Sa) - Queensland at Brisbane, Ballymore Park. 8. M/W(We) - Qld Country at say Townsville. 9. W/E(Su) - 1st Test at Brisbane, Lang Park. 10. M/W(We) - Australia A at Gosford, Central Coast Stm. 11. W/E(Su) - 2nd Test at Melbourne, Docklands Stm. 12. W/E(Sa) - 3rd test at Sydney, Stm Australia. 12 matches, 12 different stadia, 9 cities, every weekend match a tough one, most midweek matches a bit easier. Scheduling Australia A between 1st & 2nd test is not ideal, but works better for rest of program. You will notice the 1st & 2nd test played on Sundays. Where possible I've tried to schedule 4 days between matches. On only 3 occasions are there just 3 days between matches, while there's 6 days between the 2nd & 3rd tests. Lions tours aren't only about the rugby. Players & fans can enjoy Rottnest island & Margaret river wines in WA; the wine regions of SA , Victoria & central NSW; sightseeing around Sydney, Central Coast & Gold Coast, & finally, a visit to the Great Barrier Reef in North Qld.

Sorry, the current tests come in at nos 7, 9 & 10 in a 10 match tour. In a 12 match tour, the tests would come in at nos 9, 11 & 12. That's 8 pre-1st test tour games to build combos. If you do the maths, this guarantees everyone in the 37 man touring party, a minimum of 3 starting matches, plus roughly 1.5 games off the bench. Either way, everyone gets 4-5 appearances before the 1st test, barring injuries. But I'm sure you all knew what I meant!